If you've been here for a while you'll know that I'm a pretty big proponent of the THX program in general.

Lately though, I think the program has jumped the shark a bit.

Friend of mine was looking at 7 channel receivers. I kept pointing him to Onkyo's offerings as they have in the past tended to use discreet circuits for each of their channels. Something else that a lot of other receiver manufacturers didn't do.

Woot.com had a Sony ES receiver rated at 130W that retails for something like $1200 on sale one day a few weeks ago for $700. Similarly spec'ed Onkyo (the 875 I believe) is at least $1000 street.

I said to him "the Sony looks like a nice piece, but they have a bad reputation for overstating specs". Sure enough I found a review that showed the Sony could only do about 70watts all channels driven.

So I puffed up my chest a bit and said "see...they overstated their specs...the Onkyo piece won't be like that since it's THX Ultra 2 certified and has to be 100Watt per channel minimum (assuming THX meant all channels driven)."

Well, I looked up a similar THX cert Onkyo receiver (I think it was the 805 or 905) on the same site and lo and behold it too was also way below the rated watts when tested all channels driven.

Turns out they had rated the receiver's watts with just two channels driven.

Seems to me that if the THX spec calls for 100 watts per channel to ALL channels, then they should require testing for ALL channels.

Of course one of the issues with THX is that they don't publish the spec, so it's a bit of a black box thing. They don't publish what a manufacturer has to do to get certified. Do they have to meet the spec with 1 unit? 10? 20? Every unit?

Anyhow, just seems like the certification has been watered down a bit at this point. I still think you are getting something for your money when the piece is certified, but what it is you are getting is a bit of a mystery at this point.

And if it says 100 watts x 7 channels, it damn well better do 100 watts x 7 channels all channels driven before clipping.

Some of the proprietary THX processing modes are valueable, but I still think that the "peace of mind" offered by THX certification as far as build quality and spec'd performance is less of a factor today than it was ten years ago. The first cost required for certification is going to have an impact on cost, and there are a good assortment of companies that offer affordable gear at a performance level that is on par with THX certified gear. Sure, you have to invest some time doing your research, but as you proved today that can still be necessary anyway - and I'd suggest that it be done regardless of THX logos for something as expensive as a surround receiver like this.

I just recently replaced my Sony DA-3000ES receiver with a 990/7125. I had no problem with power from that receiver rated at 150w @ 8 ohms. Before purchasing the unit I had read reviews that verified the output levels. With the 990/7125, my speaker calibrations of changed on the average + 5 db per channel. So it is fair to say that I have to increase the 990 volume 5 db to match the same levels as the Sony.

Second, Sony ideologically refuses to become THX certified. The company feels that they do not have to be THX certified to prove their value to consumers.

And personally, IMHO, THX is sonically over rated. I find THX certified movie theaters to be too high in timbre to point of discomfort. In home theaters, I prefer DTS format to THX.

I have had many Sony products because they were reliable and what I could afford. I have had only one problem in the dozen or so units that I have owned. I found the 3000ES to have very good clarity and a decent sound stage. My one, ok two complaint was the lack of depth in the midrange, which may be partially attributed to my speakers (Mirage OM's). And two, the low hiss at higher volumes. Noticeable in quiet movies, not in action movies. I haven't followed the next gen of the original model to know whether it was remedied.

My apologies if this reply seems defensive, however, the Sony receiver/s got me through palatable years until I could find a good separates alternative. Thus the 990. Bottom line for me...I've found Sony to be very reliable products. Not top of the line, but for non-profit salary budget I got my monies worth and enjoyed it.

AK

Sony hasn't ever been at the top of my list, but that's mostly stubbornness on my part - I felt that they have often charged more than was warranted simply because of the "Sony" name. That being said, I do admit that the ES line has long held a very respectable position in the market, so I certainly wouldn't ever try to make a case against using a receiver like your old 3000ES - it's good stuff. Like you, I don't know much about the current generations of ES gear, but the older stuff at least has a good reputation. And Sony is certainly not alone in choosing to skip THX certification and stand on their own merits - it's the exact same thing Outlaw's done, and there are several other home theater separates manufacturers who fall into the same category.
That may be true, but you changed too many variables to be certain of that. I think the only real way to compare the 7125 to the Sony's internal amps would have been to connect the 7125 to the Sony and re-calibrate using a calibration disc (not internal test tones), then compare those values to those found with the 990/7125 combination using the same calibration disc. At the end of the day, I don't see any need to worry about it, as the important part is that the system is calibrated.

Hi Gonk,

Good point about the different variables. Although, there as been one constant between switching components...I am still using the same mains amp...a ATI 1502 (also 150w/ch). That was the only way I could come up with a estimate of db variance. I had been adjusting everything around the mains. With that said...you cannot compare the amplifiers (Sony to Outlaw) in over-all quality to cost. Apples to oranges.

My dad is hi-fi guy. I grew up listening to Audio Research pre-amps and IMF speakers powered by tube amps. Gave me a hi-end taste. But unfortunately, I've had to sacrifice my taste for my budget.

Ten years I have been wanting separates. Finally got 'em Monday. And so far, I am pleased and satisfied with Outlaw. I have followed the product since '02, and the website for about a year. I was going to wait until the next gen 990, but they got me with the double down. Not to digress from THX and lack of honest receiver ratings. My original intent was simply to give the Sony ES a positive word.

One further note. Outlaw is incredibly lucky to have you, Gonk, as a member of their forum. My experience in observing online forums is they tend to get hot-headed with beliefs. However, you help bring a civility, fairness, and Outlaw passion to this forum which many of us appreciate. Thank you for your valuable time and insight. Been wanting to express that for awhile, but figured I'd wait until I was a true Outlaw.

AK

I certainly agree that Sony's ES line has produced some quite nice gear over the years. Thanks for the kind words, AK, and glad to have you around. Enjoy the 990!

At this point THX is a revenue generator and little more. You pay you rmoney and get the rights to the logo, pay more, get a higher level logo.

I agree, THX is pretty much a joke these days. I get the feeling they'd certify condoms if they thought they could make a buck.

LOL! Thanks for a little Friday afternoon levity, Altec.

i've never thought much about buying anything with the THX logo on it.. IMHO, you pay for the logo ant not much else.