Howdy all...

I'm looking for comments from those who own this new Denon 2910 unit. I got mine last night, and my first impressions, when compared to the subject Pioneer player..is that it's drastically different, and not in a good way. When I recalibrated everythign using the internal 950 test tones, the player made things VERY BRIGHT and LOUD! It was almost painful. When I went back and recalibrated everything with the DVE disc, the player then seemed kind of muffled. It almost sound now that I lost detail in the SACD's and DVD-A's that I had with the Pioneer. It's a very strange situation....

I guess I could use some suggestions from other Denon owners that found something that needed to be set a certain way in the setup menues. There is a lot there...and the other player didn't have that much to configure. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated....I'm going to give this player some more listening time this week...and see if it was just a weird night or what....

Thanks all!

i have the denon 910 and have had no issues except for a drastic improvement on video quality.

granted, i cant comment on sacd or dvd-a quality.

denon makes excellent dvd players though.

I can't comment on the current crop of Denon players....I too own the Pioneer 563a.

I only have one SACD so far, but strictly as a transport feeding my 1050 it sounds great!

I am thinking of getting an ICBM, but I don't buy enough SACD's/DVD-A's to justify it right now.

I have to admit...the ICBM is a must if you are using SACD and DVD-A. It makes a huge improvement in imaging and sound stage!

I really need to listen the Denon more..but the pioneer, with the ICBM, and my new speakers sounded incredibly warm to me....I might be a cheap DVD player owner for a lot longer.

Keep in mind when switching to new components/speakers that the new sound is not necessarily better or worse, it's just different. We tend to get used to the way something sounds. For example, what you considered bright may have been audio detail that you weren't used to hearing. I'd suggest recalibrating to standard levels and then settle in and listen for several months. You might be surprised.

I know the 3910 features a menu option called "Compression". It's basically a "night" compression mode built-in to the player. You might want to make sure that is disabled. Also, I would double check your subwoofer crossover settings. The menu options, at least in the 3910, do seem confusing.

Hey Incognito,

Haven't seen or heard the new generation of Denon units, but I'm a bit surprised that the sound you heard originally classified as "Bright". I've always felt the Denon players were a bit "soft" in their presentation, which is nice if you have speakers that are a bit bright. It sounds like after you recalibrated, you may have gotten a more Denon Like sound. I recent article comparing the Denon 5900 to the Pioneer DV-59avi(Thomas Norton, UAV, I think), suggested that the Pioneer may be a tad more detailed which some might perceive as "bright" It might be a matter of letting things settle in a bit and getting used to the different sound of the Denon. Check to see if your player has a "source direct" function. I didn't see it during a quick look at the manual, but this feature will bypass any DSD to PCM conversions that may take place inside the player (i.e. for bass management). Since it appears you are using an ICBM, you should not need any conversion to play back SACD's. Source direct should give you a "cleaner" feed to your ICBM with less chance of any unwanted conversions. Sounds like you may just prefer the sound of your Pioneer.

I got a pre-Dennon demo of Incog's system a couple weeks back. I thought the upper mid and highs were very suppressed and lacked clarity, air, and detail. I realized since he has fine equipment, that he must have preferred this sound and tuned his system to sound this way. I refrained from commenting on this aspect at the time, because I felt grateful for the Rocket demo, I hardly knew him, and if he prefers this sound, why rain on his parade. He would likely say my system sounds very bright in comparison, but I think it to be much more revealing and accurate to the recordings intent. Having said that, my system is lacking in other respects, like I notice compression at around 90db, and my smallish NHT VT1 speakers have to be driven harder to fill the much larger room, than what I purchased them for 12yrs ago. I'm currently demo-ing all the speakers I can, for choosing good replacements. I suspect I would like the sound out of his new Dennon much better than he does. I have read some reviews on DVE versus Avia, and some who have both say DVE is good for video, but they prefer Avia for sound. They said there are some problems with the subwoofer test tones on DVE. I will offer to loan him my Avia to try out and see if he likes it better! I think some peoples perception and preference for warm, is much different than others.

Just another opinion!

I'll be over at Incog's this friday (5 NOV) for another benchmark (beer and pizza included!!!) to see if the "bright" sounding Denon is really as "bright" and unacceptable as he does (based off of my biased opinion, of course!).

I would agree with NEO's assesment regarding the highs being suppressed [hence Rocket reviews talking about rolloffs at higher freq)- which I think is very typical of Rockets(?!?! from what I've read?!?!).

I think Incog actually has both the DVE and Avia disks.

Oh you all are harsh....LOL!!!

I don't think it's supressed at all...but if what I had was the high's be supressed...then now with the Denon, the mids are supressed. I mistaked the "brightness" of the Denon for a calibration that yielded very loud volumes...so the highs got to me before any bass to offset it. I still feel there is a lacking midrange with this player...and since the Rockets are designed with an emphasis on midrange..they don't seem to be very compatable.

Just for clarification...I am one of those people that likes the warmer sound to the brighter sound. From what I have heard...the warmer sounding speakers have made it much easier to develope a sound stage...in my room.

What really counts is that you are happy, and that you are paying for the pizza this friday LOL!

Luckily you have around 25 days or so to return the Denon if you still don't like it. I can't wait to hear how the Denon sounds on your Rockets/Outlaw system.

I would classify myself as one who likes darker sounding speakers punctuated with detail. As we were talking about before, any opinion I make about your system is soley based off of my system (which does sound quite a bit different)- and quite frankly, I'm biased in my opinion .

You suffer from engineeringitis (which I do too): Gather as many data points as you can on your system and then formulate an opinion based off of that data LOL!

Cheers buddy,

Nert

Truthfully, I'm anxious for Nert to listen to it..since he has a Denon already, and is use to it's sound. I'm use to the Pioneer sound (having used it for two years). I swear there is something missing though...I am not getting the detail from this player that I got from the Pioneer. Since those that have heard my system think it's missing high end anyway...then I am really in trouble with this player..if I don't find out what the problem might be. I am thinking there will be some retuning on Friday...

I'll buy the pizza Nert..if you buy my brew for me!

OK, beer is on me! Or maybe, if I work it out we can talk Eberhardt into bringing it LOL!

edit: Eberhardt can't make it friday - but Bob Albert wants to check out your system as well as mine (I think you know him?!? ).

Nert & Incog,

I would be happy to demo the same Outlaw setup as Incog's (with the exception of ICBM, SACD & DVD-A)to you and any of your fellow Wichita enthusiast freinds, who may wish to compare the different sound from different speaker set-ups, coming from the same Outlaw equipment. Sunday is my always free day, so just let me know!

Neo,

Check your email!

Bob is a co-worker guy who has put up with me talking about my "home theater" pretty much everyday for a year now (as long as he has been sitting right next to me LOL). He finally has made plans (thanks to his gracious wife) of being able to come over and give my setup a lil' spin (which, if you can make it friday around 3:00pm, let me know NEO!). Bob really isn't much of an audio enthusiast yet....hehe...YET! I'll fix him up real good! After spinning my system, we are heading off to Incog's for a bit (which, from talking to him tonight - he is extremly elated that he figured out what the problem was with his Denon, and now he is happy with it).

Edit....I was happy with it....but I noticed that hte setting I changed...actually didn't do much of anything. I think that I just wanted it to sound better...LOL!!! But, when I put in a movie...my bass is missing (very low at least)...so, I'm back to trying to figure this darn thing out.

Can anyone elaborate on the Denon setup...specifically what I switched was the "Direct Source" setting to "Yes". It sounded like that caused the denon to bypass any internal bass management (cross overs) and send a full signal to the speakers (through my ICBM). However, I already had the speakers set to Large when the Direct Source was set to "No". So...I think it was my imagination that things sounded better. However, like I said, when I put in U571 last night...I couldn't feel the depth charges like I could with my Pioneer. Do you have to turn Direct Source back off for movies (meaning it's not just for analog sources)?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks all...

Oh..if anyone is every in the Wichita area...please feel free to spot by for pizza and brews and some music listening..

When watching movies, are you using the digital audio output or the six channel analog? If it is the digital output, the Denon shouldn't be doing anything to the bass (since it should just be passing the data from the disc to the 950), whereas if it is the six channel analog output then you could be dealing with different bass management settings upstream of the ICBM than you had before. I get the impression that you are using the digital output (which is what I do), but that shouldn't yield a change like what you are describing.

I was using the digital connection for the movie. Ya know...when I play an SACD or DVD-A, the front of the denon displays "P.PCM", which from the manual means "Packed PCM". When using analog connections..is everything PCM? I never actually knew what that was, and thought I was never using it on my Pioneer, but it never had anything that told you it was being used on the display. If you have a little time...what is PCM and should it be getting used for SACD playback and such?

Wow!!! Unbelieveable! I had a chance to demo INCOGS system w the Denon 2910 vs his Pioneer 563A tonight. Bear, Incog and I pretty much spent around 4 hours putting the Denon and Pio through some listening (NOT VIDEO!!!) tests on his Rockets. Listening test were movies, SACD and DVD audio.

I just got back from listening to his system and I would agree, the Denon 2910 sounds a lot more brighter than his Pioneer. NOW, to me, it seems that the Denon is much brighter than the Pioneer, and this can probably be due to the way that the Pio downcoverts the SACD/DVD-A signal(?!?). It was much easier (on the ears) to listen to the the Pioneer at "ROCK ON BABY" levels (+100db) than it was the Denon in *Incog's Room*. HOWEVER, based off of my observations tonight, in Incog's room, with his particular setup, my best opinion is that if you prefer to listen at lower levels (85db or lower), the Denon 2910 is much better, because the Pioneer seems to be a little muted on the higher frequencies.

Cheers,
Nert

Does anyone know if any of the other (newer) Pioneer Universal Players sound better than the subject one? I realize this is a subjective question...but I read somewhere that my player compresses the signal or something...which might be why the high end is lost. We learned tonight it's not the speakers...that Denon can be ear-pearcing at high levels. The Pioneer is quite niec at VERY loud volumes.

Incog, BTW, Great party you threw tonight...as usual!

My only question is:

Do you really listen to your music at +100db level when sitting on your couch? You know, that is really FREAKING loud!!

You know, I would say that your 2910 Denon sounds "better" than your current Pioneer. Maybe you ought to consider a quality equalizer for your home theater (when you feel like cranking the volume). I don't think that an equalizer is necessarily a taboo?

Opinions from other Outlaws are acceptable regarding using equalizers....

Also, if you are happy with your Pioneer DVD player, then that is what really what counts!


Your Bud,

Nert

I like my Pioneer more than the Denon. I just dont like those really loud highs that it hits. It gets up there pretty quick...even if it's not really really loud. I'm just wondering if there are any other good players out there I aught to look at....I know Gonk has a Panasonic...and Pioneer has some newer ones in the same price category as mine. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Incog

I had a Panasonic DVD-Audio player (DVD-RA60) that was a pretty nice unit if you didn't need progressive scan and didn't wand SACD, but I've recently replaced it with a Yamaha DVD-S1500 universal player. I had considered Denon's DVD-2200 (which looks to have been replaced by the 2910), but that was outside my price range and I never did listen to one. I haven't heard the 563 or any other Pioneer players to know how they sound in comparison to the Panasonic and Yamaha, but I've found DVD-Audio playback on both units I've used to be very comparable. Another thought - if you like the Pioneer's DVD-A and SACD performance but want a video performance boost, you could keep the Pioneer and try an entry-level Denon DVD-V player like the DVD-1910.

Oh, yeah, I haven't had a chance to finish digging into the question of "P.PCM". Since we are using analog outputs for DVD-A and SACD, what we are hearing is not PCM (the lossless digital format used by CD's), and neither DVD-A or SACD use PCM for storage on disc. My old RA60 would also show P.PCM during DVD-A playback, and my new S1500 does it as well. My initial suspicion is that this is referring to the digital audio output being created by the player (which is a downconverted datastream scaled back due to copy protection concerns) since PCM would be easy to generate on the fly, but I haven't been able to verify that anywhere.

Here is a site that deals with SACD. If you switch to DVD-Audiobahn you will get DVD-A talk.
These sites talk about hardware and music.

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/bbs.html

Gonk, There is an excellent discussion of packed pcm at http://www.hifi-writer.com/he/dvdaudio/whatisdvda.htm
Your assumption about down conversion is correct; only 48KHz/16 bit due to copy restriction excepy as the article states, meridian. My Denon specifically states PPCM is downconverted on the digital out. Anyway think of packed pcm as sort of a zip compression. The compressed dat can be perfectly expanded again. Pretty neat. I just wish they'd allow it to go between processor/dvd player. I actually think the sweet spot for outlaw would be to make a combo DVD/DVD-A/SACD/Pre-pro. After all they have the Dolby/DTS decoding done. All they need is a transport + the DVD-A/SACD decoders.
Mike