Why? Is it too much to get the best of both worlds or exactly what you want? Jeff, i would expect a more sensible statement from you than that one. One other thing it is WAYYYYYYYYYYY easier to resell your used receiver than a used pre/pro when you upgrade.

curegeorg,

Sorry to have veered away from expectations. But it's still the way I feel. I did not mean to be judgemental, but since you asked, here's why I said so.

It's goofy because it's a waste to pay for something, or to use energy to produce something, or to use energy to power something up - and then never use it. That's what the unused sections in a receiver that relies totally on separate external amps is: a waste. And wasting is goofy in my mind.

Better to at least remove the heat sinks and use them for paperweights, or doorstops, or something else, than to not use them at all.

Re-sale is not really an issue. I tend to give my used stuff away to charities, students, or friends. It gives me much more personal satisfaction than selling it for a fraction of its original purchase price.

I set out three nice components at a garage sale last Fall, with a price tag of $1.00 on each - just to make someone's day. It did and I felt good about it.

If you feel that that's a waste, then I guess you could say that I'm just plain goofy as well.

Jeff Mackwood

not if that is what you are forced to do because there are no other products that meet your needs. like i said if i found a processor/preamp with what i wanted i would have gotten it. for me, i use the amps for other rooms (receivers amps). i agree its a waste and it is unfortunate, but for the same processing power a pre/pro would always cost more anyway, and that is a waste in my mind. paying extra for the title of pre/pro, when you could pay less for better technology, better processing, and better features is a waste to me. a waste of money. if you were spending 10gs on a receiver with awesome amps it would be a shame, but that is not likely. you cant find many if any pre/pros at the same price points as a receiver when they both have comparable hardware, and that is only because of one reason, this stupid notion that pre/pros are always superior. if denon offered a 3805 minus amps, i would buy it even for the same price as the receiver, but according to normal audio logic taking out the amps doubles the price. ironic that you spend more and get less, a waste perhaps? we should both go into waste management, you could give away all the US's garbage to someone and i could charge the people who make the waste. oh and jeff, if you decide to give away some gear, let me know, ill fax you a copy of a dollar (coin not bill, gotta watch the piglets). that way wed both get satisfaction. for me i get satisfaction out of getting a little money and still hooking someone up with nice stuff, albeit older, that way you dont make them feel inferior for not being able to pay for it. not everyone likes taking handouts.

i didnt realize that amplifiers used copious amounts of energy when they werent on...

Jeff and Soundhound:

I really think you both blew your reply on this one. First there are numerous HT cases where using a receiver with a separate power amp can make sense and can be an acceptable alternative to a separate pre-pro. As an example close to home, even after the 950 came out, the Outlaws still promoted using the 1050 as a prepro for the 750. They continued to do so until the 1050 was proven to be unable to fully support DD-EX.

Whether the 950 is superior to a given receiver in this configuration is a question for a listening test. It shouldn't be treated as dogma.

On the personal side, I found having a receiver with pre-outs was an easy way to implement HT as I already had a high quality 2ch amp to power my mains. Currently, I use the 1050 (with its 65 wpc 3ch driven) as a pre-pro and center, surround speaker amp. I have considered getting another used power amp or a 200m to off load the center channel. If I found a great deal on a used 5 or 7 ch amp, I would have no reluctance to stop using the 1050's amp section entirely.

When it comes time to upgrade, I plan on looking at the total cost, and my speaker configuration. I may once again make the decision that it is preferrable to go with a receiver over complete separates. I am certainly open to the possibity that I might find a receiver whose sound quality/function set is superior to a 3 or 4 year old pre-pro (especially a quirky one).

so maybe this "trend" is nothing new, not that i give a darn about what is popular at the moment or not. i will get the best product that i can afford that meets my needs, period. if it turns out to be a pre/pro in the future, ill be happy, if its a receiver, ill be happy, if its some weird looking little ball of matter, ill be happy. everyone on here tends to be pretty negative towards things they dont do, but if they do it, then ohhhhhhh wait its a good idea. like making interconnects, great idea for you, bad idea for some, seeing as OUTLAW REMOVED IT because people were messing stuff up! that doesnt mean making ics is retarded, but as i posted then, you should be careful and exact doing so in order to not mess them up and in turn your equipment. you guys raved about how i was stupid; low and behold what happened, exactly what i warned about. muhahhahahahahha

73 Bruin, the disturbing trend is those buying a receiver with a full 5 or 7 channel amp at the same time. That can be baffling. It's not those like you who have a stereo amp and will upgrade in the future. They fully support that. I have a receiver and a pair of M200s and I'm confused about some of the purchases people make with receivers and amps. But like georg said, buy the product(s) that best fits your needs for the best price.

The distrubing trend I was posting about wasn't people using a reciever as a pre/pro(thats their choice) but the fact that they are dismissing the pre/pro or reciever by itself options and acting like they were insulted that you would even consider such a thing.

Lasher

oh, i see what you are saying lasher. yes, that is dumb. there definitely is not one perfect product for everyone. damn i wish i could come up with it though, something that everyone in the world MUST HAVE.

[This message has been edited by curegeorg (edited May 17, 2004).]

I understand the trend you are talking about Lasher, but honestly in my position I would not recommend a new 950 to someone in the market right now. It is too old and quite frankly, I don't feel as secure about Outlaw's long term future as I once did. For some reason, this company has done its best to try and alienate its fan base starting with cutting us out of the loop over the backlash over the 950's delay. Over the last two years, this forum has slowly lost the sense of camaraderie it enjoyed in the past and to me that's a shame. I am sure I will get a few people to argue with me over this, but 2 years ago it would have been a hailstorm of bullets by dozens of people, including myself, telling me why I was wrong. That feeling is just not here anymore. I do not wish anything bad for the Outlaws (I still have 3 years on my warranty), but thats just the way I see it. Sorry for straying off topic a bit.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited May 17, 2004).]