[I wasn't sure where else to post this topic so forgive me if this is the wrong spot]

Just an off-the-cuff question about rear projection TVs. Which set will give you a better all around quality picture for analog, digital and HD... DLP, LCD, or CRT?

Mike

Yes.

Just kidding. Seriously, the best picture you can possibly get is CRT. You pay for it in terms of difficulty in setting it up, in the size of the unit, and in the cost of repair. (Although if you damage a LCD panel, hoo boy, are you going to be shelling out some bucks!)

LCDs and DLPs are both competing formats. DLPs have the advantage over LCDs in terms of better black levels, however they have a controversial "rainbow" effect, where sometimes, if you turn your head, you'll see a rainbow.

Both LCDs and DLPs are inherently progressive, if memory serves. A big advantage in avoiding flicker.

If quality is your number one goal, go CRT. (Or heck, go for the biggest direct view you can afford!) Otherwise, to choose between LCD and DLPs, you're going to have to do some careful comparison.

(Not that you shouldn't compare the CRTs to the LCDs and DLPs, but the differences will probably be more subtle between DLP and LCD.)

Jeff

Welp... I was just curious, that's all. Thanks D!

Mike

I can't speak to what is better but I can tell you that I am thrilled with my DLP. The fact that I can pick up and move my 42" Widescreen all by myself is a great thing. It seems that total screen size is a factor as well as the 'viewing standard tv on a widescreen' issue. For me personally I've never seen the rainbow thing on my machine. I watch normal tv in the normal resolution with black bars down both sides of the screen. That doesn't bother me, but I wouldn't be surprised if it bugged some people.
just my 2 cents

I have heard that the rainbow effect is only with the single chip DLP projectors and that the 3 chip DLP projectors do not have that problem. Does anyone have any knowledge on this? Thanks, Reed

I thought they were all single chip projectors. I know the Samsung DLPs that I have looked at are. However, from what I understand, they are a the second generation of chip. I wonder if this "rainbow" problem exsisted solely with the first generation.

Mike

At my workplace, we sell 'mass market' products, which include the DLP from Samsung, the LCD from Sony, Pansonic, and Zenith, as well as the LCOS from Philips and Toshiba. On day to day picutre comparisons, most people light on either the Sony or the Samsung. The differences are not very subtle. Sony has its traditional picture which involves an extremely bright picutre, and oversaturated colors (which can be mitigated to a point, but seems to never want to get fully under control). The Samsung delivers a more 'natural' picture, however, at the sacrifice of some color depth. At a larger viewing distance (14+ feet from the screen), I have yet to find anyone who can honestly see a difference in a CRT versus the LCD. Directly above the main viewing of our LCDs we have placed our Plasma sets, and again at 'normal' viewing distances, the picture qualities are comparable, with pros and cons on both sides of the fence. I will tell you this, however, if you settle on the Sony, don't expect to be able to take home one of the larger sets this year (expect January). Sony is shipping less than 20% of its orders at this point, with no relief for the situation in sight.

My understanding is that the rainbows from DLP projectors stem from the speed of the color wheel and also how many color segments that wheel may have. If you look at some specs for the projectors, you'll see that the higher end the projector, the faster the speed of the color wheel and also how many color wheels may be involved.

For more helpful info, I would try looking up DLP projectors at the following two sites:

www.avsforum.com
www.ecoustics.com

Good luck!

I got my tv last year -- a 36 inch Panny Flat HD CRT. At the time I checked, CRT had the best picture from all angles. All projection tv's I saw still had issues when viewed from severe angles. Plasma looked good but I didn't want to shell out the bucks. With my crawling then 8 months old girl, I figured I had to be all over the room as I watched TV. So, the angle of view was important. It hasn't changed now that she is walking. I love the picture on it (from all angles), but it's seriously heavy -- over 200 lb's. For anything under 38" inches, a flat CRT gives the best picture for the money when viewing angles are considered. Unfortunately it gets really heavy and bulky.

All the CRT RPTVs I have seen have a glossy front screen. While that does not present issues in a showroom with controlled lighting, in the typical home family room, light comes from many angles, including windows on the sides. Sorry, but in atypical family environment the room is used for many purposes at the same time and controlled lighting at home is not practical.

In these circumstances, the glossy front screen acts like a mirror - whenever anyone walks by, the screen displays their reflections. Very annoying.

Most non-CRT TVs (DLPs, plasmas, etc) I have seen have a non-glare (matte) front screen finish that eliminates these reflections. This is sufficient improvement to make me consider a non-CRT TV.

Has anyone seen CRT RPTVs with a non-glare
fron screen finish?

One thing that bothers me (to a varying degree, depending upon the particular device I am watching) is the geometric distortion on CRT based devices.

I have a 36" Sony xbr tv that I bought a couple of years ageo. It was their best 36" model at the time but I had to spend hours in the service adjustment menu to adjust things to get the least possible distortion. The results are not perfect but the small wiggles in straight lines, especially at the edge of the picture, are generally overlookable. As it was out of the box, the distortion was fairly bad, as is the case on MANY large CRT TVs on display floors.

In regards to CRT based projectors, beings the CRTs are smaller (and more likely to be held to tighter manufacturing tolerances), geometric distortions, I would expect, are going to be less severe.

Fixed pixel displays do not have these geometric distortion issues, but have other issues.

Paul

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the 1derful1

I bought a 32" Toshiba flatscreen a couple of years ago. There definitely are geometry issues with the picture. I had a technician come over to try and get rid of them. He was able to correct some but not all. I wrote to Toshiba with my complaint. Their reply was basically that it is a general problem with the technology and you get what you pay for. They suggested I would have to move up to a much more expensive alternative. I looked at their top of the line model at that time (twice the cost) and it still had these same issues.

I like the look of the new LCD and DLP based models (size and weight is a bonus), but I feel they are too expensive still. Will wait till the price drops.

dengor, I own a Mistsubishi 48" widescreen rear projection CRT TV that has a removable screen protector, (that glassy finish you see in the stores). With the screen protector removed the screen gives a filmlike look without the reflections and glare. The protector is there to reduce the risk of damage to the screen by sources such as pets, children, wives... . It is not required to be on, though some companies might not have designed their sets to have the owner remove it. Some Panasonics we were looking at had the screen protectors as an optional purchase.

Ah, you beat me to it! Yes, most CRTs that I know have removeable protective screens. The risk is that, of course, without the protective screen, you do have a great chance of damaging your set.

Jeff

Have (and do have) two generations of the Sony 60" GW LCD. Have never looked back or regretted (other than the falling prices since I paid much closer to launch price).

Mitsy, has produced a RP 60" LCD that is something like at 10 1/2 inches depth!!!. Only for commerical display , - expected retail in America in 2004 to 5? They had issues with severe angle of projection at that narrow depth, but have improved- resolved this. Expect all manuf to get lighter and thinner.

Have not bothered to keep up with this and next years models since I am content at moment. When I purchased the Sony, the matte protective was the best of all manuf techs, anti-glare on this model when I compared all screens side by side on SR floor, major issue for my application. Can't remember the exact stats but AOV although running neck and neck with the Samsumg DLP's was in reality when I walked side-to side on the showroom floors a more usable AOV on the Sony. I don't think it will be long (within 2 years) till 20/30 inchers in DLP, Flat, LCD etc with HD hit 500 for a set for older generation techno/connectivity.

I had a good feel for this market, 3 yrs ago, I felt LCD models were going to be heavily represented by the various manuf. when that was not a popular view held by many videophiles. Am not watching the trends at the moment.

My very personal and subjective experince has been that I jumped on the upgrade wagon, at the earliest moment (around the time of the GWI) that the crossover tradeoffs begin to rivial (for various factored reasons) the best of CRT technology. (For years I held and held and could NEVER understand why so many men had 400 pd big screens, the screen size was great...the viewing angle and PQ was so bad and that tunnel vision sweet spot so bad, I just could not do one of those! When I factor the ENTIRE view experince. 16:9, Vewing angle, Amblient light factors, early HD resolution, - against artifacts, black levels, etc. I still come out on top in the entire experince with my model.

LOVE it..glad I did.

LCD to my eyes, looks the least theatrelike, so I won't be going that route when I sell my Pioneer HDTV.

Actually, I suggested a friend get the good ole' Infocus X1, seeing as he could get a discount at BestBuy...and wow, for a first gen DLP projector, and at that price?!

It is amazing, it truly is. Neither of us see the rainbow that people speak of, so no worries there. The bulbs won't be terrible to replace compared to other models. I was looking at the 2nd gen Runco DLP's, but for 6 grand? This X1 for a 6th of the price has thebest price/performance ratio.

I'll get a more expensive one in a couple years when they tweak them more.

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Play it LoUd!!

To my eyes the DLP always looks the most like 'film', probably something to do with linearity or color gamut I suppose. Also, no burn in, ever, is a plus.

On the minus, it's a bit $$$ and the lanp WILL burn out eventually and need replaced.

Depending on the ambient light conditions in the room, I'm going to go either DLP RPTV or plasma.


[This message has been edited by charlie (edited November 28, 2003).]

lcos is as good as it gets other than a really nice crt. im waiting for "minority report" style tv and computers, that is going to be nice.

Is being film-like a good thing?

Or is that what we are just use to film??

Many, many (most) times when I have gone to a film cinema, the jerkiness (low frame rate??) of motion scenes has really, really bothered me. Like making me feel dizzy (no, I am NOT a blonde, but my seester...). On the other hand, when I was in San Francisco for Home Entertainment 2003, in June, I saw the movie X-Men 2 at the Sony Metreon. The projection system was based on a Texas Instruments DLP system. What bothered me was that when a bright something-or-other was projected, at first the image was very bright and out-of-focus (for someting like half a second or so) and then would become less bright and more in focus. Just about every initial bright scene started out with a small optical explosion and die down to a less intense steady-state intensity level. This was not an artifact of my vision. The most film-like of projection systems, film, has never done this. I do not know the cause of this problem, but it was most bothersome to me, as much as the "jerkiness" of many film projection systems I have seen.

Elsewhere and elsewhen at the show, the Sony $20,000 LCD projector was fabulous (it should be for the price), the Sony $3,000 LCD projector was excellent (especially for the price: I could be long-term happy with it) but the $1,800 Sony LCD projector, in spite of its low cost, would not satisfy me.

Maybe the DLP projector at the Metreon was not an all-out effort and accordingly has certain performance compromises that I just happened to be particularly attuned to. I hope that this is the case. I swear that I was sober when I watched X-Men 2 at the Metreon. I can clearly remember all the free candy I was given when I presented my complimenatry ticket.

Well, just because film has been around for a while does not make it the ultimate. No, I am not trying to upset people, well, if making them think upsets them, then maybe I am.

Anyway, being the "most film-like" does not automatically make a certain video display technology the best in my book.

Just as an amp being "the most tube-like" (no offense, Soundhound) or a digital source (CD, SACD, DVD-A or whatever) being the most vinyl-like (ticks and pops, wow-and-flutter, rumble, etc, to me are just as distracting as the various digital flaws), a new video display technology being "the most old-something-or-else-wise" does not make it the best, whatever that may be. Nor does something being the "latest" make it the best, either.

I have had next-to-NO experience with the various projector technologies, on an in-home basis, but each one has it's own faults, problems and strengths, as does film. So, being the most film-like may or may not be a good thing, especially if you got stale old popcorn, soda, and candy stuff sticking to the bottom of your shoes.

Well, perhaps if they are giving out high-quality chocolate... I can't be bought, but I can be rented for a while.

Off my soapbox now,

Paul

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the 1derful1

[This message has been edited by Paul J. Stiles (edited December 04, 2003).]

I just don't like the 'glowing phosphor' look we've all sort of gotten used to. As for the artifacts you saw, the DMD can switch thousands of times / second - you had to be seeing a digital artifact from something upstream.

Any of the 'shine light through colored glass' systems seem to have an advantage in that the 'colored glass' can be a wide range (and probably more optimal) color.

I don't like 24fps either - it's always bothered me, but the color gamut in 'film' is generally pretty pleasant.

Well, my friends $1,000 Infocus X1 has an excellent picture, especially considering it's price. Noone that has viewed movies at his house sees the rainbow effect so no worries there.

I have been to the local CineMark many times and before you walk in, the huge banner to the 2 bigger theatres states that it's equipped with a DLP projector. It looked absolutely fantastic.

I am selling my Pioneer set in the spring and picking up the X1, just to get used to DLP. Then a little while after, I plan on getting a Runco DLP projector, and Im sure by then the DLP 2 will have been upgraded.

By the way, the X1 has the original DLP chip, and I still saw no rainbow effects. It's put onto a 92" Da-Lite High Contrast screen, and looks amazing. Xbox looks great on it too

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Play it LoUd!!

Hello. I personally have a 36" flatscreen Sony direct view XBR 4:3 in my game room & the 60" Sony Grand Wega II XBR LCD 16:9 in my living room and love both. I've been a production manager for Sony for 8 years now - however I am VERY unbiased even though I get a HUGE discount on all Sony gear. As a matter of fact I recently traded my PS2 in for an Xbox. Plus even all of my home theater audio equipment consists of all Infinity speakers & a Denon receiver & DVD player. As for the TV's - I've had the 36" for 2 years now & the LCD Wega 60" for 8 months. Directview sets by far have the best viewing angles. But this is where I believe the advantages end. All plasma, DLP, & LCD PJ have much better resolutions & much longer lives plus no burn-in for DLP & LCD which is big for me seeing I use my Xbox often. I auditioned the Samsung HLN567W 56" DLP for 90 days before I got my Sony 60" LCD to see which I liked best (luckily my brother owns a relatively large home theater store and he let me do so). The Samsung DLP was very nice indeed - however the rainbows are too apparent, especially during dark scenes & viewing from angles which is VERY annoying. Also the Sony LCD has higher resolution & more pixels which easily gives it a better picture quality at all times regardless. And though both do have great picture quality you'll definately find especially when viewing progressive scan high resolutions & HDTV the Sony LCD has a much brighter, clearer, crisper & overall better picture. As for the 'black levels' this is a complete non-issue. People blow this way out of proportion. The black levels are very good on the new generation Sony LCD - actually just right. Not too black like direct view sets & yet not too light. I find it better this way as it is MORE theatre like. When you go to the theatre & the screen goes blank/black it looks MUCH like the Sony LCD giving THE best theatre like experience IMO. The theatre movie screen never gets pure black like a plain direct view CRT set. Anyways enough rambling - please feel free to e-mail me with any questions. Have a great experience!

Greg

We just hung 2 plasma screens, 1 a Sony the other a Zenith, and a smaller Toshiba LCD at the Fleet Center in Boston. The Sony Plasma and the Toshiba are fed by component, High Definition from Comcast. Granted, the Zenith isn't fed with HD but the Sony blows it away for clarity. The Sony fed with HD and Digital Cable had an awsome picture!!! It fell short when fed with an analog signal, The local channels of ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox.

The Toshiba LCD was just as impressive as the Sony, but on all channels. This might have been due to the smaller size of the screen.

One of the things I was surprised at was the amount of time it took to install each and every one of these flat screens properly. By properly I mean all the cables aresnaked in the walls and completely hidden from view. It took us around 30 man hours to install each of these!!! With dropped ceilings!!! Granted the more you do the faster you get in the installation. I just thought my fellow Outlaws would be interested in this information to be used when purchasing one of these screens. Jim

At my workplace we have the 42' versions of the Samsung, Panasonic, Sony (TS series and WX series), and Zenith plasmas side by side along the back wall. We also carry the Pioneers, but my store will not be getting display models on that one. Anyhow, the Panasonic wins this race, hands down. Unfortunately it's not an HDTV it's an EDTV. However, the picture is far better than any of the others so what does it matter if it technically can't display HDTV resoloution.

For me that (no HD) would be a deal breaker. I already run quite a bit of HD signal to my current TV, and I plan on running a lot more.

As far as picture, I looked at getting one of the Sony XBR Plasmas. As far as I can tell, they have by far the best picture. At the moment though the benefits of plasma dont offset the high price vs. DLP for me. Though currently I am running a 65" Toshiba RPTV

So you know. I am normally not a sony fan at all, but they know what they are doing when it comes to TV. I believe they use Hitachi glass but use all their own internals.

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Stott

stott, edtvs play hd back, just at lower resolutions. those panasonic edtvs have been getting good reviews for a while now, and they are a great deal for the price. you should compare them side by side before you say every hdtv plasma is better just because its hd... the panasonics do lack a little reliability though.

I attended CES and checked out the soon to be announced InFocus 4805 front projector. In the "bright" convention setting, the picture was nice and bright and very stunning, as good as many of the plasma, lcd, rear proj sets that I saw. Supposed to be coming out for something like $1300ish and competing against the Optoma H30, both of which uses the same guts. The 4805 gave a very respectable picture for this price and the unit was super quiet, I could barely hear it running. At this rate, front projectors are going to be high on my list for the price to image size to quality that they offer. I did not see the Optoma, did anyone else see it or the 4805?

Well, after a much belabored phone call with my owner, my 'plasma wall' now is fully stocked. In the 42" size we have the Sony TS, XS, and XBR, the Toshiba Cinema Series, Panasonic EDTV, Zenith, Samsung, Pioneer, Pioneer Elite. In side-by-side comparisons the winner is the Pioneer Elite (PRO910HD) the close second, (and much cheaper) is the Toshiba Cinema series. This is a universal review by the 10 employees in my store. If you have the budget, the Pioneer PRO910 is the one. It has the HDTV tuner with it, and HDMI ports (2), and the best looking case material of the bunch (although the toshiba is not too shabby, and I believe these two sets may come out of the same factory, as the stands and manuals are nearly the same. I'll have to do some research into that one).

Has anyone had a chance to see the new Sony Grand Wega 70" RPTV? SLL? I've never cared for LCD's too much in the past (window screen effect, color skewing, poor blacks etc.) but it seems Sony has made huge strides in this area recently. I had been drawn to the big Samsung Tantus DLP RPTV's but I'm starting to have second thoughts about them. I do see the rainbows but it doesn't jump out at me, I almost have to strain to see it. One thing I am seeing and haven't seen mentioned anywhere is a granular sparkling like quality in very bright objects. It has the appearance of sunlight sparkling on new fallen snow. I wonder if it is related to the screen material because if the object moves the sparkles don't move with it? Could it be that my eye/brain has trouble integrating and converging the separate RGB color pixels into white and is this related to the rainbow effect but on a different scale? I can't wait to see a 3-chip DLP unit to note any differences in my perceptions. I do hope they come down in price soon.

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Tekdredger

[This message has been edited by tekdredger (edited January 14, 2004).]

yes i have seen that sony, and it is junk. the other series of sony lcd projections are better imo. granted they are not 70", and maybe that has a little to do with it, but that 70" everywhere i have noticed it looks unspectacular.

Junk!? Really? Wow, that thing is $7K! That's $100/inch for crap eh? I know bigger isn't always better, especially with projectors, it just magnifies the flaws, but it is still hard to swallow that it would be that bad. Could you elaborate beyond "unspectacular"?

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Tekdredger

Cool your heels. Intel is working a flat display superior to what is out there today at 1/3 the cost. Due out end of the year.

http://www.intel.com/design/celect/technology/lcos/index.htm?iid=HPAGE+low_prod_040113&

A word of extreme caution on the press reports about Intel. What they are developing is a series of Liquid Crystal on Silicon (LCoS) chips that will be used by a variety of companies to develop "light engines" that form the core of front or rear screen projectors. Those companies (currently five are involved) will, in turn, either put the engines in sets with their own branding, product the sets but offer them as OEM products to other brands, or sell the engines to companies that add their own value-add in the form of proprietary processing to build an RPTV.

Contrary to some reports, Intel is NOT developing a "flat panel" display in the form of somethign such as a PDP or large-screen LCD.

Also, their goal is to price the "light engine" at a level similar to current DLP engines within a year or so, but there is no mention of product pricing, as that is up to the end manufacturer, not Intel.

One of my fellow doggies saw two different developers' versions of the Intel chips in prototype sets in their very early stage at the CES last week, and the report is that while they look good and hold promise, there is still work to be done. Look for the chips to appear in products about this time next year.

But what do I know, I'm only a dog.

"ARF ARF" says Iggy!