A son has a Birthday Friday, and has requested 4 speakers for his 68 mustang. He just bought himself a
Pioneer DEH-P840MP, which he researched himself, (and I must add, - he most likely purchased for the dang graphics)

He said “Mom” you know enough about sound now, I’ll let you pick them.
I don’t know anything about car audio speakers, any suggestions? I did a quick look at one individual's CES report on car audio, and a couple of car audio buffs, general statements listing badges on Sound Domain.

Not one of the ‘reviewers’ said a word about ‘sound’! They listed brands and specs, then went on to spend more time detailing the size of the motor and the rims and paintjob describing the 'car' in which the audio setup was installed.

This son I would have classed as a Sub banger last year, (every time he drove my car I found my bass trim at 100%). But I rode with him this week in the mustang, and he has learned (a little) sense, he was explaining since the current speakers are blown, he has his trims dialed back for the moment otherwise it ‘sounds’ terrible. (before he would have played them at full blaring fuzz regardless of sonic mutilation involved.)

Would, um, roughly 400? do 4 speakers with decent frequency range and build? He mentioned 2 rounds, can’t remember 6/7/8 diam. (fronts) and 2 ovals/rectangle 6x8? (backs). He wants a subw too, but just asked for the 4 speakers at the moment.

Any recommendations? What will 4hundred buy? After the quick surf I saw Rockford Fosgate (a name that sounds promising) mentioned in car audio. Any suggestions, prior research in this arena I can drawn on. Things are a mess here, I barely have time to look into Outlaw for the next while, so could really use some advice from people I trust.

Not a lot of info but take a look at http://www.caraudiomag.com (if you haven't already!) but my take on speakers of any kind is to go listen...and not at electronic shops with the speakers on a board on a wall...try going to a shop that specializes in car modifications...they should have some people that want to show off! Car accoustics are wierd...I am not a believer is a lot of money in car audio but power makes up for a lot!

SLL,

Wow, a sound system for 68 'stang.

Years ago, when I replaced the speakers in my (Uh-Hum) 87 mustang (I know, the only similarity is the name), I used a combination of Boston Acoustics and Alpine with an Alpine headunit. I was quite impressed with the sound of the BAs. I'd suggest going to your local Tweeter if you have one and listen being mindful of the fact that they will sound much different in the car. If your son will eventually add a sub, then the low extension of any car speaker is moot. Audition the speakers with power comparable to that of the pioneer. Don't get too picky since these things need to compete with road noise.

Another source for information is Crutchfield. Good Luck.

[This message has been edited by DollarBill (edited October 02, 2002).]

I think the head unit your son picked will do well. I also think you're right in that he picked it because of the graphics too. He could have saved probably $100 or more by not getting it, but it's his car.

As for the speakers, do what Oaf says and try to listen to them at places. Talk to the people there about what they might recommend too. Make sure that the speakers will fit in the car! Drilling a couple extra holes is not too big of a deal, but when you have to start adding mounting boards, be careful as the price can quickly go up. $400 should get you a pretty good set of speakers for the front and back. I think this this is about the price/performance cutoff where you start having to pay a lot more to get a little better performance.

With the speaker types, I think you are trying to say 5 1/4" or 6 1/2" coaxials up front (you called them "rounds"). These have the 5 1/4" or 6 1/2" speaker with a tweeter mounted at the center. Two way will have one tweeter there, three way will have two tweeters. I don't know if there's that much of a quality difference and three way tends to cost just a little more. Also available are component speakers which will have the tweeter and midrange separate. These generally cost more than coaxials. The rear speakers are usually 5x7, or the more common 6x9 (you called them "ovals"). These come in two or three way also.

The subwoofer will be a very interesting debate when that comes around. In a car it's incredibly complex how many ways there are to fit them in.

I haven't heard of Rockford Fosgate speakers, but I have heard of their amps and subs. They seem to be pretty popular, definitely something to look into.

I know this because I have recently done some things to my car. I have a '98 Intrepid with an Alpine 7892 receiver with stock Infinity speakers (I think these are the reference series actully). 6 1/2" components up front and 6x9s in the back. I currently have an Infinity Kappa Perfect 12.1d sub in a sealed box with a 600 watt JBL amp. I'm currently building a dual vented box to put in though. Be interesting to see how this works out.


[This message has been edited by BenjaminRigby (edited October 02, 2002).]

I just checked Sound Domain and I did not see any Rockford Fosgate speakers there. I bought my subs and amplifier there too by the way. If you want quick recommendation on a brand, Infinity is good. I really like the quality that I am getting from mine. With the size, you'll have to see what will fit in the car (and your budget). Go here to check. This will give the size of the speakers currently in the car. Same size speakers of a different brand, or even different model type might not fit perfectly, so check that with someone who does installs. It is ok to get smaller sized speakers to fit in the spots too.

[This message has been edited by BenjaminRigby (edited October 02, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by BenjaminRigby (edited October 02, 2002).]

Madisound (www.madisound.com) used to have some pretty slick 'generic' grills for a variety of drivers and some nice mounts for remote tweeters (Audax drivers) that would give very nice results if integrated properly. The folks at Madisound can be very helpful - you might call or email them. The solution is usually very clean and understated visually, with a bonus of being rebuildable (if he blows them again) and the potential of excellent sonics.

Crappolla, what is wrong with that link? Anyway, Circuit City has the fit guide at their website by going to car audio and security, then to car speakers, then to car speaker fit guide (All this is on the left hand side). Then find the car.

I just put Pioneers in my car and they are doing very well.

Ahhh... car audio. That's how I got stuck in to this whole sound business in the first place! I'll be honest, I didn't do a ton of research but I was very happy with my little VW Quantum. Driving has just never been the same since it was totaled (NOT my fault!).

Anyway, I had an Alpine head unit which was just outstanding. I didn't spend a ton on it and I could count the number of times my cd's skipped on one hand.

But you were asking about speakers. This was the place I got hooked on Boston Acoustics. The best recommendation would be to go and listen to a setup in the store, and definitely go to someplace that specializes in car audio, at least to demo. A lot of those places will do free install if you buy it all there. If you do that, I'd also recommend separates for the front. That's where you'll have your round speaker you were asking about, coupled with a detached tweeter which the installer will mount closer to head level. They come with their own matched crossover. That's what I had up front in my VW and I had oval 6x9's in the back for a nice midrange fill. I also had two Rockford Fosgate Punches (ten inch) for the low stuff in the trunk. I had the installers set it up for good sound internally, and minimal noise radiation outside. I wanted, and got, good clean sound inside.

To make my speaker selection, I took in my demo material and set up "my system (head unit and amp I was buying)" in their demo room. Then I made the salesman leave me alone while I spent almost an hour comparing the different speakers. I first chose my seperates and then my 6x9's. Settling on the stuff up front first and then finding something that complemented nicely for the fill worked very well for me. In the end, I was deciding between Alpine and BA. In the end, I felt the Alpines were a bit too harsh for my tastes and chose the Bostons. Once I had those, I found a sub setup I liked, forked over more money than I paid for the car, waited few hours, and was off and running.

I don't know about the head unit he chose, but I'm sure I'm not alone touting Alpine. There is a reason they've been in car audio as long as they have and still have such a good reputation.

Owl you are definitely not alone in supporting Alpine, I have the 7892 head unit and love it.

Well it's Friday. SLL what did you get for your son?

NADA…..

Now I have extended time to research this. This son usually sets his sights and sticks to it. But he came in 2 days ago and told us, he changed his mind now he wants springs for the front end of the stang. Springs have already been replaced, but they put 245’s on the front /255’s on the back. (Firestone Firehawk ZR’s)
The car has just hit the road the last 2 weeks fairly regularly after a 2-year restoration. Now he thinks that the 245’s on the front are going to be a problem without stiffer springs. So he asked if we’d buy springs instead.
It’s been a huge project and I’m excited for them. My son and husband have done all the work. As soon as the new mufflers come in at Dallas Mustang. It goes to the muffler shop, (it’s got the old mufflers rigged now). And that will be the first item that will have been installed or done at a ‘shop’. I wish I had a digital camera, I need to borrow one, and load (somewhere) some pics for you guys. This project is why I ended up doing ALL the A/V lately. Since it’s eaten up all my husbands spare time for 2 years.

It’s a high school graduation gift for my son. And he’s matched all the money we have put into the car with money he’s earned himself. The total bill so far stands at about 14K. It’s a ridiculous amount to spend on parts alone (no labor bill) on an old 68 coupe. 88 5.0 302 motor (totaled out of another car with 6 thousand miles on the odometer)
9” Currie 350 traction lock
Manual rack & pinion by Total Control
4 wheel disc Baer brakes / Painless wiring Kit / New Vintage Air system
Cam/port polish heads/intake/carb/headers etc.
Pro Comp ultralite gauges. / New bucket seats / back seat reupholstered.
New sheet-metal in the rear-quarter panels / Paint stripped to bare-metal
Black w silver racing stripes (Shelby Style)
New 66 GT Shelby Hood / California Special Trunk
Shelby Oil-Cooler Valance on front/Shelby Side brake coolers (they are functional not just for looks)

The car amazingly enough (I was doubtful, way back when) looks tasteful, sporty, and classic (not a hodgepodge) I was shocked and floored by how well it turned out. He was just offered 30K for it last week. So they DID good.

Am I boasting and running on about it….yessss…sorry!!!!….but I’ve given up a lot myself the last 2 yrs to support this ‘car pit’ project of theirs.
Bottom line, Since no-ones even allowed by my son to put a finger on the paint. I realized the first day, I asked you all for help on the speakers, that my son and I are going to have to coordinate on shopping for speakers since I don’t understand his installation parameters. He won’t change a single thing in the interior. Which means no tweeters, and something that will fit in the existing front round opening’s and the rear backseat deck 6x9 ovals.
Knowing nothing about Auto sound, I guess he intends to have any amps in the trunk with his eventual subw. We need to go shop together (me for speaker sound/spec help, him for what will fit/work/wire).

My DSL went kaput on me right after I posted this and had seen about 2 posts (but before I got a chance to reply back). Just got back on-line late last night, (it was service provider problem) but it was a killer workload today. Thanks for all the help!! If we do the springs and not the speakers I still know the second he saves the money he will be purchasing. So we’ll start shopping now, and see what we can learn.

Well, I finally finished my subwoofer box last weekend. I made a dual vented box using Infinity Kappa Perfect 12.1d (dual voice coil) subs and a JBL 600.1 amplifier. 300 watts to each sub. This thing is powerful. It sounds pretty darn good too. When I was testing it out at first, my mom came out after a minute and said that she could here it inside. She also heard things rattling in the garage. Mind you I was in the driveway with all windows up, all doors and the trunk closed.

If anyone else is interested in car audio I could recommend Infinity speakers with JBL amplifiers. I found them at Sound Domain for big discounts to so I got quite a bargain. There better speakers and amps available, but you have start paying a bit more to notice a difference. I would say it's something like Outlaw equipment in that I got pretty darn good equipment for a much lower price than would be expected

A website I forgot to mention is Crutchfield. They have a speaker fit guide that goes all the way back to 64. For newer cars, they have a scale to tell how difficult the installation would be.

Another option for SLL's son would be to get some small home theater satellites and glue/velcro them in somehow. I would say find something very small for these, then get some 8 inch midrange/highrange bass speakers and a sub. These can be found in normal car audio equipment without too much trouble.

Hey there Lena,

My father and I restored my 67 Camaro years ago going through many of the same trials and tribulations as you are. Unfortunately my poor Camaro is once again in need of a full work-over from head to toe. My father owns an automotive shop which I worked at for ten years and used just about every paycheck earned there on my car. Anyway I just recently replaced my old Pioneer amplifier with a new Sony 100watt x 4 channel amp and blew out my two front speakers so I feel your son's pain! My car is my 2nd obsession next to Home Theater and deciding where my money goes ( and what my wife will let me use ) is one of my biggest struggles.

On the subject of your son's Mustang, I am curious to learn if the front suspension has been narrowed of if the fender/wheel wells have been "streched" to fit those 245 tires he has up front. I also used to own a 67 Mustang (which is escentially identical to the 68) and was BARELY able to fit 235 tires without having to bend-in the inner fender lip until it was flat, and then my truning radius was limited. You said that he thinks stiffer springs would help to solve his problem, but if the suspension location is still stock, those tires may never fit right and rubbing may not go away, wether it's fender rub from shock travel or his sidewalls hitting the inner fender and wheel well. As much as he likes his wide tires in the front, he may need to go a step or two down in front tire tread width to really fix the problem. Let him know that a suspension with 225 to 235 tires on the front is still capable of pulling some good G's around corners, and with a old muscle car like his, understeer is the least of his concerns. I learned just how tail-happy an old V8 hot rod can be, and have the tickets to prove it!

Just some friendly advice for him to chew on! Take care Lena!

-Jeremy

"used just about every paycheck earned there on my car."

That’s my son! He saves several hundred and then does something else. Right now he’s wheeling and dealing on a combo Christmas present, something to do with some new heads which he will chip in on also.

I’ll have to ask him this afternoon what issues they ran into with those wheels, I know they had them. Can not remember if they modified the wheel wells on the fronts. I know when ordering the custom Currie 9” for the rear end; they specified 1” shorter than stock to give those back wheels enough width clearance. He did install the stiffer springs and said that fixed the bottoming out, but we’ll see?

"I learned just how tail-happy an old V8 hot rod can be, and have the tickets to prove it!' These kinds of cars are not really my style, but the other day I got a yen to drive it. My son is rigid in his rules surrounding this mustang, Rule #1: No one drives it but him. We were standing out front and I said, “Hand me the keys” His mouth literally opened up and he stuttered for a second, before he could speak, ..(timing is everything) I tilted my head raised an eyebrow and gave THE LOOK.

I have to say I was impressed with it and my husband, who rode with me, ruined my image as he repeated to all the guys my comments along the line of “I sure would like to find a straight away with no Boys in Blue around” That thing was a dream to drive, clutch was glass smooth, steering dead on, (the suspension is kinda hard on a female, stiff as an older model Viper which I have ridden in). I didn’t worry about breaking those sticky tires loose. But I really don’t have the muscle in my forearms to pull the width of those tires around with its manual steering, unless it has some forward momentum.
They are having one issue which is the main reason my son will not allow anyone to handle this car. It is reputed to have a really vicious bump steer, I was careful to try not to experience that, throwing my right hand back on the wheel after every shift and using my left thigh as friction against the bottom of the steering wheel in case it occurred. They intend to try adding? to reduce this wicked behavior. I attended with them last Saturday an open house in Dallas @ Dallas Mustang, a large parts supplier. The car is not finished yet but they entered it in the open house show. It won ‘Best in Show’ 64 to 73 class.

Thanks Benjamin! - for the mention of Cructhfield, I have not looked at that site for these (I find them a little high in pricing sometimes) but it would be a good resource just to learn by seeing several products lumped in one spot. The son put the speakers on the back burner, (partly due to the car show), I’ve told him when he has time, we’ll go together and listen/look where ever he chooses.
PS Oaf: Dont those Morel Supremo tweeters look good!!!. But 500 a pair!

[This message has been edited by Smart Little Lena (edited October 25, 2002).]

"Thanks Benjamin! - for the mention of Cructhfield"

No problem. I find their prices to be fair, but I don't think I've spent $20 there because I find fantastic deals elsewhere (Sound Domain). I do use Crutchfield for information, which they are great at. Sometimes I feel like a heel for it, but that goes away quickly.

Is there any way for you to post a picture of your son's car? It sounds like it's coming along great. I'm more of a brand spanking new type of person, but I do have a good appreciation of the classics.

Benjamin,
I'll try to get on the pics. I've been meaning too. But I like 35m and have never purchased a digital camera (amazing isn't that since I want it in the rest of my AV!). So I've have to sort out scanning photos or borrowing/buying digital etc. Will work on!

I'm still trying to figure out what the thread title means...

------------------
Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net

The thread title was just a play on the movie title. Partly chosen because a key element of the movie centers on cars and mainly picked as I hoped for responses ‘fast & furiously’ if any at the forum had thoughts. On the day I first posted the sons BD was in 2/3 more days and I knew nothing about car audio brands soooo I had to put the pedal to the metal.

Fortunately this purchase was put on hold when he suddenly have to have springs to fix an issue on the stang and asked for those instead. But now he’s saved enough money to start looking and we are going to try to do some listening tests. He found a brand he wants me to hear, I believe called “Audiobauhn”, (not sure of spelling). And digging (a little) into this myself I have become interested in ‘Focal’, just looked up some dealers around here who carry these. (Also want to hear RF Infinity’s, Boston, Pioneer etc).

Many I’m interested in are offering component sets only, which will not work for this car. These need to be coaxial, 2 or 3 way combo units. With a sub added later to the trunk.

Audiobahn is one brand I wouldn't mind taking a look at. I don't know where they're carried in my area though. JL Audio is another good one, especially for subs. They carry good value ones to very nice high level ones, but you do have to pay for them. Their website is very informative and they carry both components and coaxial speakers. I haven't heard of Focal, but I guess I'll check them out. To show how crazy I am, I'm already doing research on how the soundsystem in my next car will be when I get it a year or two from now!

Be sure to check out some of the custom installs that companies do. They may give you some ideas on how to mount speakers. I've seen one somewhere in the JL Audio page that had the tweeters of a component set in the shape B&W teeters do, sort of like a horn. This was fastened to the dash. If it's placed right I could see it being possible to have this without damaging the car. I'll try to find it later.

Here it is Click on the "Check Out Our New GTI" link and scroll through the pictures, it's number 3. My description was a little off, but you get the general idea.

The GTI link looks interesting. It’s amazing what is being fabricated for custom auto installs. Here's one for Focal, I had read some independent reviews on their sound which made me want to hear these in particular (and a couple of other brands) for myself. The bottom 2 lines have some coaxial offered.
http://www.focal.tm.fr/gb/car/

Morel is a Dynaudio licensee who makes ome products that might be suitable for autosound as well. They would be a bit more on the 'hi-fi' side rather than the 'boombox' mindset, so it depends on what you're after....

I just took a look at Focal and it looks fantastic. I'm going to give them a serious look, even if I have to "settle" for the Polyglass series. True reviews seem hard to come by.

Morel is a Dynaudio licensee? That’s very interesting, I know Dynaudio is Danish and Morel I believe based in Israel. It’s quite the interconnected world in AV. Morel was my second pick to hear in person along with Focal, although I’ve got to get the son on their web site, I’m not sure if they produced anything that he can make fit unless he eases his installation parameters.

I think I’m rubbing off on the son!!!. He seems to be becoming more focused on the quality of the sound than the volume these days. He’s even started pointing out to me speakers, which are distorting when pushed in certain cars we’ve ridden in. It will be interesting to see (when we shop) which way he lands.

Well, I'm not totally sure what the relationship is between the companies. I'm not even totally sure it's correct to say that Morel liscences any technology from Dynaudio. If they do, it's probably for the voice coils, which use "hexagonally wound" wires.

There's some weird stuff going on with Morel. There was a stink going around about them a little while ago. I think originally they were based in England (I could be wrong there). I think the Isreal manufacturing was having some QC problems for a while. Maybe someone else here has some more accurate info.

As far as their home audio drivers go, they are pretty good. Their mid/bass drivers haven't really changed much, and are no longer as "technically advanced" as they once were. Their tweeters seem to be held in higher regard than their mid/bass drivers.

Bear in mind that their car audio stuff isn't much different from the home audio stuff, so you really are looking at a product geared towards accurate sound reproduction, rather than "flashy cool looks". Same goes for Focal. I believe that Dynaudio is also selling auto speakers now. Vifa and Seas both sell auto drivers, but to my knowledge, they don't have complete systems (including crossovers).

Jason

Question? For my Halloween 'treat' last night after eating out my husband took me to the big new local superstore. They were about to close so I had just a sec to listen to 2 models of speakers in the mobile audio area. I asked for him to put what was ‘their’ top of the line coaxial Boston’s on line, (999 a pair) then asked to hear a 2-piece component, (Rockford-Fosgate) (299 a pair).

Funny sidebar, I had him go back and forth between the two, EVERY time he put the more expensive Boston’s on line he bumped the volume. When he went back to the Rockford’s each time he reduced volume.
These guys are really funny…..

The Boston’s had extremely objectionable ‘highs’, (could not stand them) very shrill and would drive me nuts in 5 min. As soon as I remarked on this, he stated ‘Oh, we’ve had some complaints about that’ but I know for a fact the Boston’s have adjustable crossovers and are set up wrong on this board. A minute later he said there I ‘tweaked’ it isn’t that better….(it was not).

Now I know acoustics are totally different in a demo room than in the difficult and variable install in the car. But if it doesn’t sound good on the board I don’t expect it to magically improve tone in the car.

Question for the day…Crossovers should affect the frequency gaps more than anything? Is this correct?
So assuming I screwed with crossovers all day long, though I might bring the mids and bass into a smoother transaction with the highs. I could never expect this to change a tweeter which sounds inherently shrill????

It depends on how they have the crossover set up. It is definitely possible for the crossover to affect things other than just at the crossover point. There are "EQ" circuits that can be used to reduce inherent "peaks" in a drivers response. Also, there will almost always be some form of attenuation circuit on the tweeter. For some reason tweeters naturally have higher effeciency, so they need to be "quieted down". This is usually just a resistor or two. If Boston was going to make an adjustable crossover, it would have been wise for them to make it possible to adjust the relative level of the tweeter, which in your case might have taken care of the "shrill" sound you were hearing. I've noticed this about their home speakers as well. One pair that was particularly expensive, and had an aluminum tweeter, about made my ears bleed. The silibance was soo horrible, I had to switch to listening to different speakers. Maybe all of their speaker designers are 70-year-old construction workers that don't have hearing left above 5kHz?

On a side note, the receiver in the car should have enough EQ ability to tame down most of the high end harshness. Once the car is moving, there is a lot of road noise, which dramatically affects your perception of sound. Maybe the speakers are optimized for that type of environment, and would thus sound very different when installed in a car? Seems to me like $1000 is an aweful lot to spend on car speakers...

Jason

Thanks to all for the help on this one. The son & I went shopping and he picked Rockford Fosgates.
The choices became extremely limited as he stuck to his severe install limitations. If he used even a 1” bezel to allow for more depth for install on his fronts (the Focals) he would end by tending to scrap speaker grill when he hits his clutch. Rockford was one of the only units we could find with the necessary shallow install depth required for the 6” fronts. He had unlimited depth for the back deck 6 x 9’s. He purchased 6” coaxial in the front and 3 way coaxial in the rear 6x 9’s. Sounds nice.
He spent half of what he had saved and budgeted for, and is wheeling and dealing to add this saving into our budget and purchase a Christmas sub setup for the car. This will cost him more than the 4 speakers combined. He’s very happy with it. Thanks again!

Glad to hear he's happy! He'll be in hog heaven when he gets his sub set up in there... Merry Christmas indeed!