Should an HT forum allow posters to:

1.) Inform and advise us according to the manufacturers recommendations?
2.) Try to sell us on the products sold by their advertisers or the advertisers supporting the forum?
3.) Act as a meeting place for happy folks who all agree on HT?
4.) Be a forum for people to report on their good experiences and good opinions on HT equipment, manufacturers, and all things HT related?
5.) Be a forum for people to warn others of their bad experiences with those entities covered in #4, as well, so that they might not experience those same nightmares?
6.) Be a forum where folks can suggest ways in which those problem entities may correct those errors noted in both #4 and #5?

So… how do you guys see an HT forum?

Thanks!


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Take Care,
merc

If anyone believes that all 6 reasons are valid and legal posts on HT forums... then what forums do they actually think will allow them???

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Take Care,
merc

I don't have a problem with any of 'em. What I do personally have problems with, is people who trash equipment with no more credentials that a 6 year old. That unfortunately happens a lot on a lot of forums.

Another issue is *how* people get across all of those points in their posts. If I want to be preached to, I'll go to church, or a political rally. I believe that HT forums should be a place where people can learn new things in a constructive environment, and not have their faces rubbed in the fact that *someone* else might just know a little more than they do.

And then close minded people. (OK, I'm venting a little now.) Remember the dude here who had so many excuses why SPL meters were such a bad idea, that he wouldn't even try one even though he was so adament about how open minded he was? And then over the thread, a lot of his "variables" actually were refuted, and he just ignored that? Man...

I'll be honest, and say that I've learned more in the last few years on HTF (and some here! ) than the 20 previous years reading audio mags. Not that audio (and now HT) mags don't have a lot of info, just that the interactive nature of forums kicks major booty...

My 3 cents anyways...

Or... are you sure you just learned and examined ONLY what HTF wanted you to know and learn?

Are you assuming that HTF allows all 6 points as seen above?

[This message has been edited by merc (edited September 14, 2002).]

I think some of us are well aware that not all six aplly to HTF.. Can you say censorship to the Nth degree???

merc: just buy a banner ad....they'll let you say whatever you want.

and, of course i get your point loud and clear. truthfully, i assumed such going into that place. and please...keep up the good work.

I do agree that HTF is a little bit more restrictive than here. But it seems to be the individual moderators involved more than a general trend coming from Parker or Ron.

But I wouldn't put it quite as strongly as, "Or... are you sure you just learned and examined ONLY what HTF wanted you to know and learn?"

I spend time at HTF, here and AVS, and have also checked out other forums on audio/video as well as guns, gunsmithing and photography. My interests involve music and the outdoors, and while I frequent forums to learn, all of these forums are unfortunately also visited by a few pushy or egotistical people. HTF has a fair amount of these, but I agree with Kevin that you can learn much from these forums. This forum is the least restrictive of any that I visit. But as with any sampling of a society, each and every forum will always contain a wide variety of personalities. Some people rub me the wrong way. Others bother Kevin. Still others bother Merc. Differing opinions never bother me. It does bother me when someone cuts someone personally or cuts a product they have never used.

I totally agree about HTF. Its a shame when moderators actually intimidate users to take a position on particular products.

I had extremely negative opinions of Outlaw Audio just because moderators at HTF had no tolerance for anything but praise of the 950 even before it materialized and Outlaw had made a series of missed shipping date pronouncements over 6 months.

My budget forced me into buying the 950 anyway, and since I have, I've been very impressed with the product (for the price) and absolutely blown away by their over-the-top customer service. (Scott, you RULE!)

99% of us can weed out the postings from the uninformed, crazies, or salesmen posing as enthusiasts. But its the well stated dissenting opinions we're often most interested in.

IMO heavy handed moderation is absolutely counter productive to consumers and creates resentment and backlash to products the moderators support.

As one person noted here before, this forum is the most civilized AND the most free of moderation.

HTF is at the mercy of its moderators though. As soon as Mr. Simon came on board posts and threads were selectively deleted and people (including myself) were booted in droves with no explanation or justification.

I think the Outlaw forums are a model for what open and free discussion forums should be. And HTF is or at least was the posterchild of how overactive and "activist" moderation can destroy a boards credibility and reputation.

Once again, Kudos to Outlaw!

[This message has been edited by HT crazed (edited September 15, 2002).]

One problem with forums like HTF is that many people will never realize just how heavy the censoring is, at least until they are censored themselves. Same for AVS.

I once asked a simple question looking for an explanation to why copy protection on TheaterTek (PC DVD player) was heavily defended, while people were constantly discussing ways to defeat region encoding, overclocking CPUs, etc. Any software piracy discussions were censored immediately, while region hacks and hacks to 'unlock' pro features on cheaper software were allowed.

Of course, the answer is that AVS is a reseller of TheaterTek, and therefore has a vested interest in stopping piracy of it. Despite the fact that it's protection is far, far beyond that of applications costing thousands of $$$s, and is a major pain in the ass.

My post (and account) were deleted in less than 8 hours.

Just try posting a review of a movie before Ron does... Ten minutes later, it'll be "What review"? And don't ever, ever, ever, refer to any studio exec, no matter what they've done, as a boob(intstant termination). Also, you don't have to do anything to get booted at all. All you need to do is be related to someone who got booted, just ask my wife.

IMO, HTF may have started out as a forum which existed to help people, forward the HT hobby, and to support a wide variety of opinions on equipment and movies; but now, it seems to exist merely for the veneration of a select group of golden idols and the self aggrandizement of a few, or one?

As a result, HTF is slowly losing its' most intelligent, experienced, and open minded HT hobbyists. It has progressed from a forum which fought hard against DiVX, to a forum which supports and defends the studios that release Pan and Scan (only) DVDs. It will always though, be a forum for the HT newbies(who don't know any better), Hollywood elitists, and those that support those hollywood boobs, and of course, HTF's little caesar.

It is surely, no longer, a true home theater forum.

Merc - bummer about HTF finding out about your wifes account. It's cold turkey now, bud. You are right about HTF's gestapo tactics causing a brain drain. AVS has by far better information and a higher level of discourse.

But hey all these boards need to generate cash somehow. It'll be interesting see if HTF's hidden agenda model works longer term.

Merc- If not HTF, then what?

Is AVS better? I used to surf there, but they had too many divisions, and I couldn't keep straight what was being talked about where so I gave up. But I know that there are discussions over there that never make it to HTF...

I surf both forums and find both useful. I do not, however, post very often. I can say that I like the people here better, and post here much more often.

Hmm, apparently Ron doesn't know too many studio executives. I know a few and the preceding evaluation would be just a simple statement of fact.

I've been verbally abused many times on other forums just for expressing a positive opinion about the Outlaw 950, so I have some sympathy with forum moderators censoring the obnoxious. But, of course, that isn't what has been mentioned here. The examples above really do represent excessive moderator muscle in most cases.

FWIW, here's another suggestion. Go to ANY HT forum and try to discuss another HT forum. See what happens. For example, I happen to think that the lengthy DVD reviews posted on an unnamed forum are consistently uninformed, pretentious, and poorly written. But try to find a place where you can express that opinion. ("Oh, WE don't discuss OTHER forums here....")

Why should I care? Well, because I think it's a shame that film and DVD craftsmen have their best work evaluated publically by someone who has no more education or qualification in the area than my Aunt Tilly. And because of the nature of the medium, there isn't even a Letters to the Editor option to file a contrary opinion.

The Internet is great. It isn't perfect.

[This message has been edited by bobliinds (edited September 17, 2002).]

Notice:

We've always taken pride in how the Saloon has been as "un-moderated" as possible, but some of the postings in this thread are dangerously close to going over the line. We will remind all in this thread only once that you are free to express your opinion, but please do so with respect for others. NO name calling is allowed. If things don't get civil here we reserve the right to delete messages or threads as appropriate.

Best Regards,

The Outlaws

So as to comply with Scott's request, and not personally call anyone names, I'm gonna refer to a ficticious HT forum(Forum A) owner as John Doe or JD for short from now on.

It never amazes me how folks who moderate or own other forums, continue to come to the defense of JD, in the name of decency and fairness, when JD has in many cases previously and personally wronged them, hypothetically speaking of course.


In one case, hypothethically speaking, JD told one forum's(Forum B) owner and moderators that their mere posting presence on Forum A, was causing some of JD's members to go and join Forum B, and, that JD did not want them posting on Forum A anymore. Forum B's owner and mods complied with JD's request. But then, JD had the sheer gaul to post on Forum B, in defense of posted movie review, which was somewhat critical of that DVD's studio. JD, of course, defended the studio in the thread. Even moreso ballsy, was the fact that this review was posted on Forum B by a well known reviewer who is also not allowed to post his reviews on Forum A before JD posts his thread.

When a Forum B member criticized JD and Forum A, in response to JD's defense of the studio, Forum B's owner and mods jumped in to defend JD.

In another case, hypothetically speaking, the owner of Forum C, posted a Star Wars(AOTC?) movie review on Forum A well before JD could post his on his forum. As quick as you can say bullshot, the review was deleted. Yet, once again, Forum C's mod has come to the defense of JD and his forum, in spite of the injustice done in return by JD.

It is really admirable that these other forums can "turn the other cheek" and place themselves above the level sunk to by JD, but, in the same vein, this policy can and may do a dis-service to their members by not allowing others to notify folks of Forum A's policy of censureship, prejudice, unfairness, and their real reason to exist...hypothetically, of course.

Thank goodness for forums like this one!!!

[This message has been edited by merc (edited September 17, 2002).]

Most hypotheticals involve some sort of "what-if" scenario.

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Matthew J. Hill
matt@idsi.net