New speakers for a new 950/770/LFM-1 combo

I just purchased some Outlaw gear-950 Pre/Pro, 770 Amp (7 X 200 W) and the LFM-1 subwoofer. All great value for the money that have made my home theatre come alive with the best sound I have ever owned! I don't suppose I will ever go back to a receiver after hearing this setup-night and day difference between Outlaw gear and my Marantz receiver. I currently have entry level Paradigm speakers (Phantom Towers, Titan Surrounds, CC 270 Centre) and of course want to upgrade these as well.
My room is 25' X 20' X 8' and I enjoy both movies and music equally as well with a slight edge to more movie watching.
I have religiously read the Axiom forum and am confident in purchasing their product (7.1 system-2 M80's, VP 150C, 4 QS8 surrounds) as they seem to be the Outlaw's of the speaker world. However, my local stero store carries the Monitor Audio line (Silver 8's etc, Gold series are incredible but too $$) and these too are beautiful speakers to listen to but also are pricier than the Axioms. As well, I have read great things on the Rockets( 750 Sigs,etc-perhaps pricier than the Axioms) so I am as confused as ever just when I thought it was Axiom for sure.
Can anyone steer me in the right direction for this important "next" upgrade. Anyone own these systems or compared these same lines?
Thanks in advance

Try kit speakers from these sources. Per price, they are just about the top performers.

http://www.partsexpress.com/
http://www.acoustic-visions.com/
http://www.madisound.com/

I believe that Axiom offers a in-home trial period sort of like Outlaw's. If you really have your mind set on them, then you might want to take a listen. If you don't want to pay full shipping costs, just try out the front main pair first. If you don't like those, it won't matter how good the surrounds sound.

Are you happy with the Paradigm sound? If you are, their higher level speaker series always get great reviews and there are a bunch of Outlaws around here using some sort of Paradigm set-up.

You're really only limited by your budget. I would find as many systems as fit into that range and try them all out, if possible. As far as reviews, name a speaker brand and I'll find you a good review for it online.

Another option might be Aperion speakers. Like Axiom, they are online, offer 30 day in home trial, and pay for shipping both ways.

I own Onix Reference 1's from AV123.com (same company as the Rockets) and not only do I love the sound it is by far the best community I have ever been involved with. Great people all around.

[This message has been edited by Jed M (edited September 21, 2004).]

What do you not like about the Phantoms? Those are fairly nice fronts. I have a similar setup, Phantom Fronts, Focus rears, and the CC-270 Center, and I think the sound quality is quite nice. I have a friend who has some fairly expensive Phase Technology Speakers, who thinks my Paradigms blow his away.

Thoughts?

-Rob

Another net-direct company is Ascend Acoustics. I own CBM-170's for my main L/R. They have garnered great reviews consistently and have been compared to much more expensive speakers. They have been preffered over Paradigm Studio series, only giving up the deep bass in those cases. The CMT-340's are the big brother to the 170, producing a "bigger" sound. They also offer a 30-day in home trial, as well as allowing customers to piece together a complete package in stages: you get 45 days from the initial purchase to add, say, a center speaker at the reduced package pricing. Then 45 days from that purchase to add the surrounds at the package price, and so on.

Dannic,

This weekend Incognito (a poster here) is having a "Axiom vs Rocket Faceoff" Party at his house. The "Test" will be between his recently purchased Axioms, and his recently purchased Rockets (we are going to pick them up tonight)- The speakers that he likes most he will obviously keep, while the others will most likely be boxed up and shipped back to the manufacturer (Both Axioms and Rockets are within their 30 day return).

Incog has the Outlaw 950 pre-amp with the 7100.

I am sure that he will post his final conclusions by Monday of next week.

[This message has been edited by Inertia4u (edited October 07, 2004).]

Inertia4U

Thanks for the heads up. I will be waiting with anticipation to hear the results. I understand the Rockets are setting up a distribution centre in Canada (wish Outlaw would follow suit) so it will make it alot easier for us Canucks to testdrive and sendback what we don't want.

Have a good weekend

Inertia4U

Thanks for the heads up. I will be waiting with anticipation to hear the results. I understand the Rockets are setting up a distribution centre in Canada (wish Outlaw would follow suit) so it will make it alot easier for us Canucks to testdrive and sendback what we don't want.

Have a good weekend

Howdy all....

As Nert pointed out...I will be testing the Axiom M80's against the Onix Rocket RS750's tonight. Just from hooking them and breifly listening to some TV and SACD (very briefly mind you)....all that you hear about the differences between these speakers is true. The Axioms are a lot brighter than the Rockets. However, the increased amount of treble in the Axioms provides for a lot of detail that you can't miss (kind of in your face type detail). The Rockets are much warmer, but are dominated by the midrange, as the treble dominates the Axioms. I had also read, and concur after last night, that the Rockets require more power. The Axioms gets bright pretty quick...the Rockets take a little more power (difference between the Axioms being 4 ohms and the Rockets being 6 ohms). Now, that being said...my buddy Nert hasn't yet heard what I heard....when you crank the volume on these speakers the Axioms get to ear bleeding levels...while the Rockets seem to get richer. It almost sounded like I hit a point on the volume control where the Rockets got just what they were looking for, and opened up incredibly. The midrange didn't dominate anymore, and the imaging was incredible. I can't wait to actually get the 950 calibrated for them and see how they sound (it's still calibrated for the Axioms right now...since we will start with those speakers tonight).

Please keep in mind that this was just a few hours of total listening (with the Rockets). They aren't nearly broke-in, nor am I any sort of expert in the audio field. I am purely going by my ear. I know that Lomb7 has a pair of each as well (M60's and RS750's). I think he can tell you the same...he actually posted a lengthy comparison in the "My system Saloon" I believe. I will try to give you all the final verdict on Monday.

Thanks all...

Break in ? Explain what you mean here.



[This message has been edited by Tom L (edited October 08, 2004).]

I have a pair of M80's and they don't sound bright. Just very detailed. Then again my room is has carpet, drapes and lots of pictures.

It's hard to do an A/B test without a room designed for testing IMO.

Tom,
Of course Incogs decision depends on how the speakers sound in *his* room, not in a testing facility. I don't think he can afford a testing facility since he's been spending all his money on speakers, outlaw components and pizza/beer trying to get all of his friends over to audition the Axioms and Rockets LOL!

Regarding "Break-in:"

There is a belief that over time, the stiffness of the *newly manufactured* diaphrams (woofers etc) is reduced due to a lot of playback (via sonic fatigue). Because of this reduction in stiffness, there will be a change in overall sound over time. How much of a change - who knows? Some say thier speakers tend to sound more mellow (maybe less bright) after so many hours of listening.

In Incog's room (which also has carpet, drapes, pictures) the *new* Axioms sounded very bright (to me) and they are, as you say, very detailed. As with everything, some people prefer that, others don't.

Thanks for filling me in. I don't know what to believe when it comes to speaker break in. A lot of people say that it doesn't happen and others say that it does. I guess it must be a trust your ear type of subject.

I would love to hear the Rockets against the M80's. I wish I had the extra $ to play around. It would be fun. I don't think the Axioms sound bright compaired to the vintage Klipsch speakers I own.

I hope I didn't come off defensive that wasn't my intention.

Thanks again!

Tom

Axiom is a Canadian speaker manufacturer, and like some of their fellow "north of the border" speaker makers (including Paradigm, the speakers I use) they have made use of the speaker research done by Canada's National Research Council. Many people feel that this research tends to lead to speakers that are brighter and more detailed than speakers developed elsewhere (such as the US or UK). Whether that extra detail feels clearer or overly bright can depend both on the room and on the listener. Some people don't care for the sound, in which case the somewhat more expensive Rockets (developed by an American company and manufactured in China) will be a much better fit. Others may find they like the "Canadian" sound, and for them the Axioms could be a great choice for some affordable home theater speakers. The best part? Both groups are right, and both groups are getting some very nice speakers.

Incog & Nert - I'm looking forward to hearing how your tests go this weekend.

------------------
gonk -- 950 Review | LFM-1 Review | Pre/Pro Comparison Chart | Saloon Links

Actually, Tom, I am not sure either. I'm not sure if there really is a noticable "break in," or maybe just the fact that people become accustomed to their speakers? It *seems* to me that my speakers have mellowed (I have Paradigms as well, 2years old), but maybe it is just me that has mellowed (38 yrs old)

I also agree with Gonk. The best speaker anyone can buy is the one that sounds best to them. And that is personal experience.

Inertia4u,

I hear people saying "placebo" effect and etc. It seems to me that anything mechanical would have to loosen up a little, like a rebuilt engine. Just a thought. I don't want to start a debate on this, it's like talking about cables.

Anyway, I'm happy with the M80's, they sound good for the money.

Thanks!

Tom

Howdy guys...

This isn't the review...sorry...and please don't expect a very lengthy description of this weekends audition. I'm not an expert in the field.

However, to help Nert out..and to maybe sum up what I would put down as a "review". I think the best way to describe the two sets of speakers is as such...and I told Nert this. When listening to the Axiom's (M80's) it sounded like you were standing right next to the person playing the music and singing the song. With the Rockets (RS750's) I felt like I was sitting just in front of the stage and listening to a performance. The Axioms are very detailed!!! To obtain that detail, to me, they emphasized the treble and higher frequencies, which brought the sound stage right on top of the couch (or "in your face"). The Rockets emphasis is on midrange. That kept the soundstage back away from the couch and made me feel like I was watching a concert, and not part of it.

Just a quick $0.02. I honestly think that if anyone around you has the Rockets, it would be a good listen. You lose a little bit of detail (the very suttle detail), but the soundstage opens up immensily.

Just from what I can remember....the Axioms reminded me of the Klipsch speakers...with all of those high frequencies and that horn tweeter it has. (It has been awhile since I was standing in front of a set of Klipsch speakers though)

I hope that sums it up a little. Again, it was just my own person opinion. I will leave with this though...and I told Nert and the other three people that wandered through the listening session that night....the choice between those two sets of speakers was not a slam dunk! They both have their fine points. I actually would have preferred that one set would have been horrible. All in all...I am keeping the Rockets and the Axioms have to go back home. I thought the Rockets were warmer, and had more finer points. The Axioms have produced more detail than I have ever heard in a speaker before it though. The fatiguing of my ear drum to sustain that kind of detail was something that got me. I felt that I could listen to the Rockets for days and not ever want to turn them off because my ears were hurting.

Sorry that this got long winded. Maybe I can consider this the review and get out of the task that Nert signed me up for. Heck, he was there...maybe we aught to make him write a review too. LOL!!!

Have a great one all...if you have any particular questions...please let me know, and I will try to answer them as best I can.

Incog

I wasn't really expecting a very long review from you, Incog.

I can add some points though:

The Axioms and Rockets were hooked up to
Incogs 950 preamp and his 7100 amp and his ICBM w/ two LFM-1 subs. Music (SACD and CDs) and DVD movies were played on a Panasonic DVD player (I think it is the Panasonic DV-578 retails around $150US or so). There was no equalizer in the setup, so it was pretty much pure 6 channel (for SACDs) and optical (cds and movies). The system was originally calibrated for the AXIOMS, and he and another guy recalibrated (using Avia or something and an SPL meter) when they switched over to the Rockets (I went outside, drank a beer and smoked a cigar So I'll have to take their word for it!

1. Every person (a total of 5) at Incog's house that listened to both Rockets and Axioms found good things to say about both.

2. Every person that listened to both Rockets and Axioms eventually agreed that the Rockets where much more "warm" and not as detailed that the Axioms are.

3. It is true that there is some roll-off of higher frequencies in the Rockets - and this is espeically much more noticable after you get done listening to Axioms! (it is all relative).

4. We listened to a wide range of music, both in stereo (SACD and CD) and multichanel SACD - ranging from Country, Jazz, Rap and good ol' Van Halen. We also watched specific "thrill" parts from two movies (Terminator 3 and When we were soldiers).

5. I would agree with Incog that the "soundstage" seemed wider with the Rockets, and I would also agree that they Axioms really are best described as "being in your face." I've noticed this also during the "pre-party" setup that we did.

6. In all, we (4 people) listed to each brand for about 3.5 hours each (one only hung around for an hour or so).

7. The build quality from both, in my opinion is very good. I didn't see any seams, marks or poor workmanship. The Axiom M80s are a tad taller than the Rockets.

8. The center channel and surrounds from the Rockets are HUGE! I've never seen a center channel that big (in fact, the two woofers on the center are bigger than those on the Rocket Mains!).

9. The center on the Axioms is very nice looking as well. Incog complained a little about the tweeters being on the outside of the woofer/tweeter pattern and that led to imaging problems. I didn't quite seem to notice a problem.

10. Incog said that the Axoims reminded him of the Klipsch that we had listened to before and said they sounded similar. I told him that I don't really see them being all that similar at all (I think the Axioms are much brighter, and lack warmth that I remember Klipsch having).

11. Before everyone left, Incog and I made a point to ask which speakers they would prefer. All of them said Rockets. I said Paradigms, because, well, that is what I have and I like 'em


Now granted, this was the performance of the Axioms and Rockets in Incogs home. The "theater" has standard carpeting, bachlor couch and 2 coleman camping chairs (LOL), pictures on a wall, and plain ol' white wall. As the evening went on, beer bottles started to fill up the coffee table (yet I digress).

Oh, that reminds me. When I mentioned that we had listened to Van Halen guitar riff ("Eruption"), we actually couldn't continue listening to it on the Axioms because it was way to harsh and ear piercing. I did not find it enjoyable at all.

Caveat 1: It is entirely possible that in a larger room, possibly with special reflective/absorption materials, or maybe even just "Broken in" that the Axioms will not be as bright. So, you actually may find the Axioms to meet your musical/movie needs better.

Caveat 2: I've always thought that Incogs DVD/SACD player was bright sounding to begin with (we hooked it up a long time ago at my house, calibrated etc). So, this is also a factor to consider (at least for me).




[This message has been edited by Inertia4u (edited October 09, 2004).] to add DVD player spec, edited to add Van Halen Guitar Riff Name, and to correct a typo.


[This message has been edited by Inertia4u (edited October 09, 2004).]

Good review guys. Being a Ref owner I am not surprised by the results but I would like to hear Axiom at some point in time (but I think ascends will come first). It really shows what great values can be had online, with our own Outlaw being a great example.