Marantz AV7005?

AV7005 < < COMING SOON ! ! > > Networking AV Preamp/Processor | $1,499.99

http://us.marantz.com/Products/3255.asp

I assume Outlaw will sell these if they come out before the 978? It's significantly cheaper than the AV8003 at $2,599 but seems to have a nice feature set. Who knows how long "Coming Soon" is though...

I mentioned this on another thread in that, ironically, the company(Marantz)whose products Outlaw is currently offering for purchase, no matter how you slice it, this new AV7005 is a unit at its price level and feature set could be the stiffest competition yet for the new Outlaw Pre-Pro(whatever it eventually might be).

For all we know, it could be the same unit produced in the same factory in China.

Not from what I can tell. First, the rear panel pics of the AV7005 I've seen indicate that it's made in Japan.

I will take Peter at his word that the 978 is (paraphrasing) an Outlaw exclusive and consequently the AV7005 are not the same products. Having said that, I don't recall Outlaw announcing where the 978/998's will be built. Given the prior relationship between Outlaw and D&M Holdings (including Snell) it would not surprise me if there was some synergy.

I really doubt that Outlaw's going to re-badge a Marantz, for a variety of reasons (not least of which is the fact that Marantz would need to authorize such a thing).

With the current partnership between Outlaw and Marantz (D and M Holdings), one has to wonder which company will be manufacturing the 998/978. It would appear the Marantz (and Denon) both have some good products with a wide variety of prices/features. I don't believe Outlaw will rebadge the 7005, but I think that the partnership will extend beyond just selling Marantz products. I am just speculating based on the preliminary pictures and the current partnership. But on a forum I can speculate on anything (within reason anyways).

Keep in mind that the partnership to sell the SR5005 doesn't have to have any connection with the Model 978/998 development. Marantz maintains a broad dealer network (that's the only way they have to deliver products to consumers) and there's no indication that Outlaw's connection to Marantz for these products is anything other than an extension of that dealer network.

Point taken. I was thinking of the larger company - D and M Holdings. I am assuming, somewhere, they have the capability of manufacturing. But again, just some fun speculation.

D&M Holdings may have manufacturing resources, but it probably varies from one subsidiary to another. Snell had US manufacturing facilities, for example, but those facilities existed prior to D&M buying Snell. I don't know that Denon or Marantz own the factories that build their disc players and receivers.

Gonk: Any idea about that other D&M Holdings company - McIntosh? It sure seems that an Outlaw designed 978 with their emphasis on overall sound quality and HDMI audio capabilities, might provide an excellent basis for building a future McIntosh 136 replacement.

By the way, Happy Birthday!

I don't see McIntosh wanting to partner with an entity like Outlaw for such development. For one thing, they can make lots more by putting such R&D work into their own products, which sell for much higher margins. For another thing, they presumably want to preserve their market image. Partnering with an internet-direct company that focuses more on the balance of performance and value doesn't fit with that image.

It's more likely that Outlaw is working from scratch with their manufacturing partner (who is likely somebody like Eastech, the manufacturer they worked with on the Model 1050 and Model 950, rather than an entity like D&M) to develop the Model 978's analog section.


Thanks!

No doubt you are probably right about any linkage here, however, I can't help but be reminded of the Lexicon/Oppo BD player fiasco of this past year. Of course, given the state of the consumer electronics industry and the consolidation that has been going on, I guess one should say "never say never".

The Lexicon mess was a somewhat different animal, I think. A very high-profile animal, certainly, but also different. It was a case of a company taking a fundamentally sound product, wrapping it in a fancier brand name, and upcharging 700% for it (all while not adding anything measurable except more mass around the loader, and while being very slow to provide firmware updates). If Outlaw were to partner with somebody like Marantz, we would be seeing the opposite: a company taking a fundamentally sound product, tweaking it to fit their market needs, and selling it for less money. I think that makes it less likely.

I also trust Outlaw to be straight with us when they say they're developing the Model 978 and Model 998 from the ground up, not modifying somebody else's existing design. Not only does that rule out "re-badging" a Marantz (or a McIntosh), but it actually reduces the likelihood of any sort of development partnership with Marantz. After all, if you look at the big brands (Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Integra, Yamaha, ...), their lines are all built around the idea of a core architecture in support of an entire product line - each company offering line-ups in which incremental upgrades in build quality, amplifier power, video processing, analog audio parts selection, user interface "prettiness", and ancillary features (network support, etc.) define the steps up in cost while significant chunks of core DSP code exist throughout most of the line. That's the only way that even those giants can sustain annual release cycles for lines that offer as many as half a dozen (or more) separate receiver models. They would have no interest in spending time doing something completely different for a single (or a couple) individual products sold under someone else's name. I could always be wrong, but I don't see a strong business case for a Marantz-Outlaw partnership to develop the Model 978 and Model 998.

Gonk:

I think you missed the point I was trying to make. I was not suggesting that Outlaw would be taking anyone's product, but speculating about the opposite. I looked at the McIntosh 136 and it struck me that in many of its features, it appeared to be a slightly more advanced version of the 990 with HDMI (video only) instead of DVI. It struck me that if the 997/998 was going to be what Peter described then it could be used as a base platform for an enhanced 136 offering. There is all kinds of room in McIntosh's pricing model for all kinds of build, interface and part upgrades that would never be possible in the target price range of a 997/998.

While you are probably correct that Outlaw is pairing with another manufacturer, imagining a McIntosh manufactured Outlaw 978 with a made in the USA label was to sweet to ignore.

I think the reasoning works in both directions. I have seen very few instances of companies partnering like that to develop new products. The closest I can come is OPPO's work with NuForce to refine the analog audio design of OPPO's players, and that was much different in scope and focus. I just come back to asking why McIntosh would want to partner with such a radically different company (different target markets, different price range, and different distribution channels) for a project.

The MX-136 is a few years old, and the feature set reflects that. There were many receivers and a few processors from that time period that did HDMI video only. The Model 990's use of DVI mainly served as a good way to be clear with consumers that they weren't getting audio. The MX-136 did offer some video processing that included transcoding of analog video to HDMI output, which was less common. As for replacing the MX-136, McIntosh already has an HDMI v1.3 product available (the MX-150), which leaves them with even less reason to want to partner with anyone to develop something. As intriguing an idea as it is, I just can't figure out a way in which it would happen.

The more I think of it perhaps the notion of joining forces with a company like Outlaw would be somewhat redundant. I was reminded that pretty well all the mainstream manufacturers are now selling their products either as new, reconditioned or refurbished through several authorized "on-line" resellers, in some cases, at significantly reduced prices so, like you stated, there doesn't seem to be much of a business model just to add another line under another name.

I think in the case of Oppo though, not to get too philosophical here, but I remember the words of an article written several years ago by the late great writer in the former Stereo Review, Julian Hirsch, who said and I paraphrase, "any company with half decent engineering can build a product to a certain spec, by being able to buy the best parts, bring it to market and charge anything they want for it; the real engineering prowess comes when one can build a competitive performing product with a similar spec for a fraction of the cost AND price, bring it to market and still make a reasonable profit on its sale". I believe a specialty company like Oppo kind of set the world on its ear with its products and a company like Lexicon realized they just couldn't do what Oppo did.

Perhaps this is all irrelevant but it is kind of interesting.

It is interesting. This industry's technology has been moving very fast in recent years. While DVD players had become relatively straightforward to develop, Blu-ray players are a different matter. They're hard to develop. In some ways, they're easier than surround receivers/processors, but in other ways they're harder. Lexicon's had a long history of developing surround processors (going back to the 90s), but even they have faced some challenges keeping up with that market. At the same time, their history of building video disc players includes no original platforms. With DVD players, they licensed a Pioneer or other platform and adapted it to their uses. With Blu-ray, it shouldn't surprise us that they did the same thing. After all, a Blu-ray player is significantly harder to develop than a DVD player, so it's unlikely they'd start trying to develop their own now if they chose not to with DVD - especially once a platform as strong as the BDP-83 emerged. Cambridge did the same thing with the BDP-80 platform to create their BD player, and while it was significantly more expensive in the US (higher retail than the BDP-83) it was actually pretty competitively priced in their home market (the UK). The problem with the Lexicon BD-30 was the way they did it. That's where they really screwed up. Had they done what Theta did - made some effort to customize the power supply and analog audio sections, which are conveniently "easy" to modify without disturbing the core guts of the player - they might not have gotten ripped to shreds so badly online. The price difference still would have been hard to justify (Theta's had issues with that), but nothing as severe as what they've had to face instead.

And Rick S called this one... Going to have to check out the Outlaw guide on this one - there's been a ton of buzz about the AV7005.

Gonk,

Don't you think it's a litle strange for them to be selling a pre\pro that would appear to be direct competition to their future pre\pro?

Preliminary info regarding the AV7005 has been available on Marantz's website for several weeks already. It does look like an attractive product with a very good feature set but lacks Audyssey MultEQ XT32/Sub EQ HT, which remains very high on my wish list. In addition, there is no torroidal transformer and the product description makes no mention of the use of high-end DACs... not deal-breakers but certainly worth hoping for in a separate pre/pro.

Scott's apparent promise, at the outset of his announcement, that the 978 will be "the "audiophile-grade" product" we expect gives me hope that my wish list might yet be satisfied. If it can be done for a price similar to that of the AV7005, trading network connectivity for the features I've mentioned in other posts, I'm definitely in.

If they had Model 978's in the warehouse right now, I'd call it strange squared. They don't, though, and having the AV7005 in the warehouse instead gives them a way to offer customers a very compelling package today when paired with their multichannel amps.

Will they keep selling it after the Model 978 arrives? I seriously doubt it!

As GaryB points out, there are some potential differences between the AV7005 and the Model 978. Some people may want to wait to see what the Model 978 brings to the table as far as audio performance is concerned - I've seen some folks unsure whether to pull the trigger on the AV7005 or wait to see if Marantz has an AV8005 in the pipeline, and the same will likely be true for some people who are already considering the Model 978. In the meanwhile, though, having the AV7005 now means you can make sales while the Model 978 finishes cooking.

The AV 7005 is a terrific product. It sounds great, and the platform itself is rock solid. (See reports on the SR 7005- the receiver version) It is also feature packed and extremely flexible. Please read the Guide and you will get a good explanation of everything it can do. This approach is very appealing to many users.

By contrast, when it appears, the 978 will be, a simpler product where the emphasis will be on audiophile performance. It will be most likely found in straightforward home theaters and two channel systems. It too, will appeal to many users.

Between these two there is no "better". It really depends on the priorities of each user. For me I could be happy with either one. On the other hand, my wife would prefer the 978 when it becomes available.

So, we have to disagree with our good friend Gonk’s opinion. In actuality we haven't really decided what we will do when the 978 appears. It could be that we will have two great products that appeal to different customer's priorities. Right now with the AV 7005 we know we have one great processor.

Peter

Well, I had decided that I was going to buy the AV7005 when it came out to replace my 990 and having Outlaw sell it with their guide and discount makes me even more trigger happy. However, after reading the above three posts(thanks), I'm thinking I have waited this long and I can wait a little longer to see what the 978 will bring to the table.

The AV7005 doesn't support DSD. This is a deal killer for me. Outlaw, I hope you're listening...

I noticed that omission. It's actually been discussed some at AVS in recent weeks. I'll be curious to see if the Model 978 supports DSD input - depending on the DAC's they're using, it's entirely possible they could be able to deliver DSD straight to the DAC's. That could be a nice perk for SACD fans.

The one wrinkle with supporting DSD input in a processor is what happens to it once it's in the processor. If you want to do any processing of the signal (Pro Logic IIx or IIz, room correction/EQ, or even just bass management), the processor has to convert to PCM because the DSP chips we all use are designed around PCM - they can't do anything with a DSD bitstream except hand it off to the DAC (assuming the DAC can handle it). That means that the value in having DSD support lies mostly in an ability to deliver DSD straight to the DAC's. That ability comes at a cost: no bass management or room correction. If you ask your processor to do any processing, you've gone over to PCM anyway - at which point, you could have asked your player to convert to PCM and disregarded DSD support entirely, making omission of DSD support less significant. For the Model 998, for example, the biggest point of differentiation is expected to be Trinnov - and the only way to use Trinnov with SACD's is to convert the signal to PCM somewhere. Same for the Model 978 and AV7005 if you want to use Audyssey with your SACD's, and it's true for all three if you need bass management (which most of us can at least benefit from).

Gonk makes an excellent summary of the tradeoffs involved with streaming DSD. It seems to me, however, that a processor that can accept DSD could let the user compare direct DSD streaming vs. PCM (and the post processing features) and decide which they prefer. Personally, I want this ability.

Certainly the key (at least for me) is in understanding what is happening when changing between DSD and PCM output from a player.

Niksmixpop,

Obviously we are pleased that you want to wait for a 978. It might just fit your needs. For the record however, we are NOT selling AV 7005 at a discount. For those 990 and 970 owners who purchase the 7005 we are providing them a way to sell their older processors back to us that we can later offer as “B” stock in good working order.

Peter

Peter, could you go into any more detail on how the two products will differ? What will the 978 offer, feature-wise, that the AV7005 doesn't? And what won't the 978 do that the AV7005 does? I think the AV7005's networking features won't be found on the 978, for example.

Some of us will have to take a good look at the AV7005 to see if it will meet the needs we're looking for, but it's hard to do against a product that isn't fully detailed yet.

Thanks for any input you can offer,

Scott

[ [/quote]


Niksmixpop,

Obviously we are pleased that you want to wait for a 978. It might just fit your needs. For the record however, we are NOT selling AV 7005 at a discount. For those 990 and 970 owners who purchase the 7005 we are providing them a way to sell their older processors back to us that we can later offer as “B” stock in good working order.

Peter [/quote]

Peter,

Sorry about that. I should of been more specific about the buy back offer for 990/970 owners that was detailed in the e-mail I received. It is great of Outlaw to do this for current 990/970 owners.

Pat

Many SACDs are issued in stereo only mode. A processor that can accept a stereo DSD signal, and is therefore not able to apply room correction and/or bass management control, but would presumably have superior digital to analogue conversion (instead of this function being done in the player), is very desireable. By it's very nature, two channel stereo doesn't need these post processing functions nearly as much as multichannel music does. Of course, you need two full range speakers in this case, or a subwoofer that can accept speaker level input and apply it's own bass management.

I'm a long time Outlaw 990 user. I haven't posted here in a long time.. Just pulled the trigger on the AV7005 and I'm very excited. Looks like it will fit very well in my H/T. Direct DSD from SACD isn't really a big deal for me. The rest of the unit looks awesome. Especially given the price.

@Outlaws, any eta on an AV7005 specific forum topic?


Thanks,
Scott

The Marantz AV8003, like the Outlaw 990, was noted for having superior digital and analog electronics and sound for the price. I believe the 990 shared similar digital electronics with the Anthem preamps at 3-5 times the cost. I would guess that the AV7005 is not what an AV8004 would be at roughly half the price. Peter T., can you tell us which DACs and digital audio processor the AV7005 uses and how this compares with the AV8003? I cannot find it in the Marantz manuals or in the Outlaw user guide. Many of the printed specs of the 7005 are similar to the 8003, but there must have been some compromises to cut the price almost in half.

I believe that those questions are best answered by Marantz. It is really up to them to reveal their component choices.

Peter

I was always under the impression that a key point for DSD (per the format advocates) was that unlike PCM, the 1-bit nature of the DAC ensures monotonicity and linearity over the entire dynamic range--in other words superb analog sound without requiring extreme chip precision. If that is at all true, then the analog sound from any competent DSD player ought to be so close to SOTA that it would be meaningless to seek an alternative DAC, such as inside the pre-pro, which is in contrast to the case for PCM, where the DAC (chip + I-V converter + reconstruction filters) plays a much more significant role in the sonic outcome. All the pre-pro needs for DSD is a clean, direct analog path into the volume control, and that is dead easy to do.

Based on this, Brent, I cannot understand your deal-killing stance, and Skiman, it is already possible for you to make exactly the comparison you want to do between DSD and PCM, simply by selecting the player's analog outputs.

I did a little searching. The AV8003 uses Cirrus Logic CS4382A DACs (same multichannel DAC chip used in the BDP-83, coincidently). Someone on AVS posted a report that the SR7005 uses an AKM 4358 DAC, which would likely be the same as the AV7005. The Model 990 uses the Analog Device AD1852.

Thanks Gonk.

I'm still holding out for the Outlaws' 978.
Besides loyalty I have this feeling that the Outlaws are going to come out shooting.
I have owned the 990 for some time now and the 990 delivers and so does the customer service from the Outlaws.
To be honest with my fellow Outlaws the 990 is a piece of equipment that I am not sure I want to give up. As I said before in other posts I do not understand what the big upset-meant was with some Outlaws in regards to a release date for a new processor.
I do understand however those outlaws that are without a processor and are in need.
I will say that the announcement of a new processor from Outlaw was a little pre-mature given that it has been at least a year since said announcement.
That being said I am still a captive by the Outlaw organization.

Original early Outlaw adopter here (GS #58) hanging on with my 950 and its buzzing transformer and dirty volume control, but waiting patiently for the 978. I'll be at CES in January - will I see an Outlaw surprise? Hmmm?

Edit: I just did an exhibitor search on the CES web site and "Outlaw Audio" was not found. I wonder if they'll be unveiling the 978 in someone else's booth. Hey, I can dream, can't I?

Hank

I will be there in the Atlantic Technology/Parasound room (2501-A at the Venetian Hotel). Please visit us to hear a demo of the H-PAS technology (which will be in an Outlaw product in the future) and if I am in the room when you come by, I would enjoy meeting you.

Concerning the 978, at least one other Outlaw will be at the show and we have scheduled a progress meeting with our offshore engineering development team. We plan an update for all a week or two after the show.

Until then, Happy Holidays.

Peter

Thanks Peter. I'm with 3M and am Sourcing Manager for the projection division, including our pocket projectors. I will try to catch up with you. Send me your cell phone # if you want.

I have a new 7125 sitting in a box waiting for the elusive pre/pro with the right cost / benefit point for me. I am very interested in the AV7005 as it seems to be a good fit. I have a large room (18ft X 18ft) with very tall ceilings - 9 ft going up to 18ft. I plan on a 5.1 system. Can anyone tell me if it will be worth waiting for a Multeq XT32 component (possibly the 978) or will the Multeq XT be sufficient? What is Multeq32 going to buy me?

No real reason to wait. The AV7005 looks like a winner at $1499. Unless your room is really wacked you wont need Trinnov or the fancy Audyssey32.

I recently purchased an AV7005 from Outlaw in the hope of replacing my 990 or at least serving as a stop gap until the new 998 is released. As a disclaimer I'll remind everyone that the following is just my own personal experience and opinion of course and encourage all interested members to do their own experimenting. I'd like to first say that Outlaw was very generous in offering a trial period for the AV7005 allowing for a no hassle return in the event that you weren't satisfied (which describes my end result). I played with the 7005 for a couple of weeks before deciding to send it back. The high points for me were it's huge set of features, HDMI 1.4 switching, HD Radio, Satellite radio capable, media center control/access, great video performance, super easy to use automatic set up and EQ...this thing can control and access just about anything it seems! The single low point for me was, in a phrase, sound quality. In comparison to my 990 the sound quality of both the digitally processed sound with or without EQ as well as the analog direct were just not even close to the quality of both of these paths in my 990. I found that for movies, using the EQ processing gave a sort of overblown character to the sound..too much bass in short. This, dare I say, "Bose" like sound seemed to sacrifice nuance and detail and any hope of midrange bliss. This gap in audio performance between the 990 and the 7005 grew even larger when comparing two channel analog direct. The 990, especially as an HT pre/pro and at it's price point, does a pretty darn good job as a two channel preamp when asked to. My experience with the AV7005 was that the same thing could not be said. The 7005 let you know it was an HT pre/pro and it sounded, to me, obvious that it was a mass market type piece of electronics...maybe not quite Best Buy grade...but not a whole lot better. I would venture to say that for a decent percentage of the Outlaw's target market the Marantz AV7005 would satisfy well enough if not entirely. My bias, however, is skewed strongly toward audio performance and I am willing to sacrifice virtually everything else if need be to achieve that. So for now I'll continue to enjoy my 990 and cross my fingers and toes in the hope that a 998 release is not too far off.

I had the exact opposite opinion. I also took advantage of the 990 upgrade offer, and decided to keep the 7005.

I will agree that the EQ processing did not work for me at all. The Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume features, however, were a complete bust for me. When engaged, even at the lowest setting, Dynamic Volume produced bass that was overly boomy and unlistenable.

The Audyssey processing was very effective, however.

I posted a short review of my 7005 at the AVS forum, and I'll repost it in the 7005 section here.

Scott

Peter, it was very nice to meet you at the show, and as I've posted in the speaker forum, the H-PAS speakers were quite impressive.

From your post above: "We plan an update for all a week or two after the show."
Hey, it's been over two weeks, so consider this a friendly reminder.

I just got an email update from the Outlaws regarding the 978 at 6:30 this morning - check your email

Thanks for that. I strongly identify with your priorities. I supsect (but have no proof) that for folks like us a better option would be a gently used AV8003. They're priced in the $1500 range and going down.