Double bass with CD and Large speakers

Anyone notice that if you are listening to a CD and have speakers set to LARGE that the SUB still gets the bass unless you set to bypass mode even with the SUB set to LFE Only? This means that there is no way to avoid double bass in LARGE except to go to bypass mode.

Outlaw has said they might fix this if other people than just me see this as a problem.

Is this the case with a digital input or an analog input, or both?

I have my CD input configured to use a digital input, but I did connect the analog inputs too, and I have the 5.1 outs of my DVD/CD player (a Denon 2910) going into the 7.1 inputs. I've found that the 7.1 inputs don't have double bass in any configuration when speakers are set to large, even if the sub is set to LFE+R/L. It really does seem to be a direct bypass, unless you set the speakers to small in which case the bass management kicks in so the sub gets a signal. Which is what you'd want if you have your speakers set to small of course.

And, like you, I found that, at least on the optical input, I do get double bass unless I go to bypass mode, where even though the sub is set to LFE+R/L, there is no signal to the sub.

For what it's worth, this setup lets me compare the DACs in the 990 with those of the 2910, by switching between bypass mode on the digital CD input and 7.1 inputs. And I find that both DACs are really good. It's going to take a lot of listening to see which I like better, but since I actually prefer to have the sub helping out with the lower bass, I generally will be listening to stereo or upsample mode on the digital input.

I have Paradigm studio reference 40s in front, and the specs say they go down to 59 hz at -2 db, and about 40 hz at -3 db. I've tried setting speakers to small and the crossover at 40, or 60, and I prefer the sound with the speakers set large, with bass from the sub by setting the sub to LFE+R/L. It seems the Paradigms just sound better with a full range signal. Bypass mode, of course, takes the sub out of the picture.

It surprises me, though, that the sub would still get a signal if you have it set to LFE only. Seems like there should be a difference in stereo and upsample modes between having the sub set to LFE only and LFE+L/R. That way, you could choose whether to have the double bass in the stereo or upsample modes.

I hope I stated clearly what I did. I'm still trying out all these settings. I think I'm going to have to make a chart so I can remember what happens with each of them. Also, I'm wondering if I can get my preferred double bass on the 7.1 input when listening to SACDs and DVD-audios. Perhaps I have to set it that way on the Denon, if I'm sure the digital output is still direct without speaker settings applied, so that I'm still using straight signal from the Denon when listening to regular CDs, and applying the 990 settings, and using the speaker setup in the Denon when listening to SACDs.

It's nice to have so many options, isn't it?

Mark

A quick read of the Denon 2910's manual confirms that the digital outputs are unaffected by the speaker settings. So with the 2910 set to bass enhance (the equivalent of LFE+R/L), I'm getting sub signal in the 7.1 analog inputs, but none in the bypass mode on a digital input. How nice for it to work the way I want it!

bigal,

Try setting the surround speakers to "large". I have the Sherwood P-965 and can stop redirecting bass to the subwoofer in all modes by setting surrounds to large in addition to the fronts.

This double bass only occurs if the rears are set to off and the fronts are set to Large. Turning on the rears, or using rear speakers, prevents the double bass. Also, if the surrounds are off, there is no double bass.

Of course, you always get double bass in L/R + Sub mode, but that is what it is susposed to do.

Some thing for me when enabling the rear surround speakers. However, I can also prevent double bass by turning off or setting the surround speakers to large.

I just set the fronts to small with 40Hz crossovers. When they fix the problem, I will experiment with other configurations.

Leaving the rears on with a 40Hz crossover is also a possibility although you will get some low bass from the non-existant rear channel. That is why it is important to set the rear crossover low.

Don't have a 990.

Have not read the manual.

Can anyone tell why one would even invite "double bass" or why anyone would ever design for it?

At most I can see having a single big honking button on the front panel or remote that says "push here for double bass" - and have it defeated in all other situations. By the sounds of the gyrations explained above, Outlaw is making this way too hard.

Didn't they learn from the 950?

Jeff mackwood

It is a bug. I assume they are going to fix it soon.

Ok.

I only asked because it was a design decision in the 950 and wondered if they were attempting to transport that same design philosophy to the 990.

Jeff Mackwood

In my case, I think of it as reinforced bass rather than double bass, especially for stereo listening. At least for me, I like the way it works. Here's why:

My Paradigm studio reference 40s go down to about 60hz at -2db, and about 40hz at -3 db. If I set them to small and crossover at 60 or 40, it sounds good, but if I set to large with the same crossovers, it sounds better. At a crossover of 60, where the bass on the paradigms is starting to roll off, the sub picks up the slack. And since I have the 2 channel sub mode set to -2 db, it doesn't really double the bass, only adds it back in so that I get a nicely balanced sound without too little or too much bass. If I'd set the paradigms to small, I'm losing bass below the crossover, and even though they can't fully produce down there, they still produce a decent signal and sound better than if it's cut off. The sub helps bring back what's rolled off, and I think it works quite nicely.

This is, of course, with a digital input, and a non-bypass mode. In bypass mode when speakers are set large, there is no sub signal. I suppose it might be nice to have a button or switch to turn on bass management even in bypass mode, but I've found the 990s DACs essentially comparable to my Denon 2910s, so the Stereo mode on the digital input sounds great.

Anyone with these speakers, or similar in range, should definitely experiment with setting them to large. I've found it sounds better.

Mark

I never really understood the double bass issue.
If the issue is that you have the same bass signal delivered to multiple sources and that doubles the content, giving a unrealistic sound, then the only true solution is to have all information below a certian Hz delivered to a single driver in mono, right? I think that I am listening to "double bass" all the time, where the x-overs overlap in each speaker, when the sound is bouncing off the walls, where the recording is using the same information and sending it to the two stereo speakers to produce a centered sound stage, microphones in the sound recording picking up additional information in the studio...

I define double bass this way. Set the front speakers to large. They should get a full range signal and nothing should go to the sub. However, if the surrounds are on and the rears are off, bass goes to the sub even in Stereo mode. If you turn the rears on, the sub gets quiet. If you turn the surrounds off, the sub gets quiet. This is a bug.

That does sound like a bug.

Can you configure the 990 to turn the rear/surrounds or sub off when in stereo mode?

I understand your problem, but to me it isn't a problem. I think of the LFE signal being present as more of an additional crossover to the present speaker system. If the information exists in the signal, even in stereo, why not have the best driver available reproduce it?

Think of it another way. If your Full range speakers reproduced the LFE signal, say each front speaker had an 18" driver in it, would you be concerned that some sound was coming from the larger driver in those front speakers?

Edit - In addition, the sub information should be more sensible then audible. Is it possible that you have a localization problem with the sub placement? As in, if you placed your sub between the L&R front speakers would the double bass affect be reduced/eliminated?

I guess the bottom line is, I may not be comfortable with the functionality, but the sound quality/listening pleasure is not compromised by a double LFE.

You can clearly hear more bass when the (non existant) rear speakers are on then when they are off. You also hear more bass in large mode than in small mode. It is like you have the bass control on and say, that is OK. Well, maybe it is. It is like my wife's car with the sub. They just added the sub. clearly too much bass but she likes it. I, however, don't want my living room soulding like a JBL car system. To me, the LARGE setting is unusable, so I use the SMALL setting.

I have a 5.1 system with C/LF/RF/LR/RR. If I add my non-existant SS speakers will I get more bass? I would love that. Can't get enough bass.

Edit - opps, forgot to add that I am still using the 950. But you probably figured that out.

The reason for my previous posts is because I "kind of" have the reverse problem of wanting MORE bass in stereo mode. And I am interested in seeing if the 990 would provide that.

Another question for the 990 owners: If you have the mute on and use the volume control to reduce the volume does it unmute the system?

I've been meaning to dig deeper into the bass management behavior being discussed here, but time has not cooperated. Maybe in the next week ago...

Yep, it certainly does. Just tried it to be sure.