Time to buy !

It's really almost time for real kids.... Wife keeps shoving the Outlaw credit card in my face asking when we're going to call and order it, gotta love er' eh ? But before I do, I really need some advice from you all regarding peripherals such as cables and perhaps a sub woofer and even a shelving unit for my turntable, or a new media storage rack.


1. Most important right now is speaker cable and interconnects.

Speaker Cable: I do not subscribe to the notion that spending more is synonymous with getting better quality in the case of cables. I'm more into the scientific aspect of it, or engineering aspect which states that one of the most important things is conductivity, and this seems to be the philosophy of Blue Jean Cable manufacturers too:

I was also looking into the anti-cable guys, and thought for a bit that their stuff seemed decently priced, up until I saw the prices of their interconnects, which are a lot more expensive than their speaker cables, which makes zero sense to me at all.

I'd love to hear from anybody who owns Anti cables, or who knows where to get the same type material they use (magnetic wire I think) so I can buy bulk, and make my own. The Anti cable is $10 a foot, while the Blue Jean stuff is .89 cents per foot raw. If I terminate the Blue Jean stuff I think it would run me $45 for two single strands because I need different lengths. Obviously the Anti Cable will still be more. I'll probably just go with the cheaper Blue Jean fix for now, but will investigate the anti cable for later use if it's really that much better.

b. Interconnects. Lots of choices out there, but the Anti Cable guys are way expensive for this option IMO. At the moment, I have these listed as possibilities:

I"m going to need a few pair of them, so spending more than that is out of the question for me for now. I'd love to hear some input from anyone with experience enough to tell me whether or not these brands will allow me to hear any significant sonic differences. I'm not really even sure I believe in such things. So I'm not discrediting the notion that different coloration is possible, or even more or less transparency, but I don't have the time or money right now to start experimenting so we'll have to apply the KISS methodology here.


2. Shelving/housing for Turntable: I've read that keeping your turntable off of the floor is best because of vibrations which occur naturally, but aren't your walls susceptible to the same occurrences ? Is it all just mumbu jumbo propoganda in order to sell $300 pieces of wood to hang on the wall ? I mean, I"ve seen some really expensive wall shelves that are supposedly made just for turntables: ie: isolated/dampened etc etc... I know that the industry is full of snakes and snake oil to boot, and it's confusing to try and separate fact from fiction nowadays.

I NEVER believe in anything that Stereophile and other such magazines try and sell, because in the end, it's all advertisement dollars and company ass kissing. Biased reviews are the norm now, and advert dollars are the reason... I have no problems with getting a shelf for my wall if that's what it will take to reduce vibrations that will mess my TT up, but what do you guys think ?

I mean hell, I can go to home depot and get some 3/4" MDF for really cheap and coat it, then mount it, compared to spending over $300 for a plank from Audio Advisor and such. Thoughts ?


3. I'd eventually either like to get a sub woofer, or perhaps just better speakers that can handle lower frequencies for music. Thoughts on that ? My living room is pretty spacious I suppose. It's attached to a smaller room next to the kitchen, which could be considered a dining room area. The main listening area is 11'3"D x 21'L but if I include the extended alcove area the depth becomes 20 feet rather than 11. For a room of that size, would the Outlaw sub(s) be under powered ?

This post (as a .txt file right now) has been sitting around for about 2 days, so I might as well just put it up and get this started. I want to get speaker cable and interconnects ASAP, as well as a shelf for my TT. And if not a shelf then a recommended media center with which it can share room with my 2150 and cd player and TV. I don't have a flat screen yet. Come to think of it, I'm going to post some pics of my place so you guys have an idea of what I'm working with.


Oh, and before I forget, the last decision I'll have to make is whether or not I go for a B stock unit or a new one. The savings with the B stock is amazing, considering there's no shipping, it's a straight $499 ! That's pretty awesome right there, but I certainly wouldn't want to skimp on a perfectly working unit (as in, it's in the same working order as a new unit) A scratch or ding on the top or rear won't bother me too much, if it's hidden by what is storing the unit. But if it's a really evident thing, I might feel differently.

My main concern is: Under what circumstances did people send back their 2150's ? What reasons ? Didn't like the sound ? Hell...I'd hate to own Bughunter's ex-2150, since he probably tried to sabotage it !

Long post, I know. Sorry. But I'd really like as much advice as you guys can throw my way, regardless of it being subjective advice etc..

Thanks !

Doug

Oh, and I forgot to ask you guys in regards to the speaker cable, if you prefer to go bare wire into the binding posts, or prefer terminated ends. If I were to go terminated, I think I like the idea of spades more than banana tips. What about you guys ?

And would you go single ended or double ?

Pics on their way.

I'd go with the 10 gauge speaker cable from Blue Jeans with the standard banana connections.

That is really good speaker cable and the banana connectors they sell are solid.

Would go with them for the interconnects as well. I don't think you'll have any complaints using their stuff at all.

As a brief aside, amazing how the price of copper has really messed with the cable people.

About a year ago a foot of the ten white speaker cable from blue jeans was $.66 per foot.

I know that the price of copper has put a real dent into Monster's bottom line.

You think it's bad for cable folks like Blue Jeans (and I know it has to be), you should see what it does to contractors. We've had cooling coils stolen out of condensing units on job sites for the scrap value of copper. We've even had one contractor ask to substitute stainless steel in place of copper for some domestic water piping because of price increases between bid day and when they were able to place their order. The worst, though, was a demo crew hired by an owner to haul off some old equipment - instead, they stripped the copper out of the machine they were supposed to remove (leaving the steel shell) and then pulled copper feeders out of conduit that was supposed to remain to feed exterior lights. I'm told that particular demo contractor was arrested, thankfully...

Cables... I've used both Outlaw and Blue Jeans analog audio interconnects - in fact, almost all of my analog audio cabling is from one of those two companies. (The exception being some really long runs of low-priority cable that connects spare outputs of the cable box to the DVD recorder for archiving things like children's TV shows to DVD for our daughter, which requires a pretty long run and thus has MonoPrice cables that cost me about $8.) You can't go wrong with either. Keep in mind that the PCA's locking connectors offer the advantage of a sure-fire connection, but come at the price of probably busting a knuckle or two to get them all tightened down (especially if the rear panels are hard to get to, which is less likely in a case like this than in a home theater setup).

For speaker cable, I also like spades in most cases. Banana is the most convenient - it's what I use for surrounds at both the amp and the wall plate behind the equipment rack. Bare wire is a nice secure connection, as well, but I only use it at my surround speakers where space is an issue (flush mounted rear surrounds and wires tucked tight to the corner of wall and ceiling next to binding posts mounted in the ceiling). By single-ended or double, are you talking about bi-wiring? If so, I assume that your speakers support bi-wiring.

I have never shopped for a shelf or cabinet to support a turntable, but from a purely mechanical perspective the goal would seem to be to manage vibration. A floor will deflect more than a wall, but how much deflection will depend on the floor construction and your proximity to structure underneath. A stud in a wall will be less prone to movement, but it still has the potential for some movement. You mention MDF versus some fancy plank of wood - one reason that MDF is so often used in speakers is its ridigity. It's likely to be less prone to movement by itself than something else, both either can be affected by movement of the structure they are sitting on or bolted to. A stable shelf or stand (something that doesn't add movement to the overall system) and some vibration isolators (something that can absorb some of the structural movement and lessen the effect of floor or wall movement caused by walking around or running your sub nice and loud) would seem like a good approach, at least from the perpsective of someone who has not ever tried to set a good turntable up.

When contemplating B-stock, remember that it has the same warranty as A-stock (not to mention an inspection process that should be able to catch any "sabotage").

Sweet Spot,
Thoughts:
Your right on w/ interconnects and speaker cable.
There are a couple of places you can trove for cables...
I have had good luck w/ Signal Cable (Speaker and inter-con) and Outlaw inter-con.
I have seen good reports about River Cable speaker cables - but no personal experience.

Both sites (Signal/River Cable) list Resistance and Capacitance. And both sites have low snake oil thru the web pages.

I have also made my own (DIY) CAT5e - that where interesting. I prefer the signal cables (bi-wired) over them. I prefer terminated ends.
Outlaw inter-con sound good. Except i have a couple of the outer shielding coming out of the RCA plugs.

Stay away from monster in less you are in a bind.

I have heard good thing from Outlaw subs and they should be fine. There are others that will do the job also: HSU, Axiom, SVS, JL, Velodyne, etc....

B-stock should be okay.

Turntable is isolation. I'm sure there are some gunslingers who can chime in.... personally - i like the granite approach or tip-toes.

Keeps us up on your project... sounds like fun.
Later

Pics of living room to show space for sub:












And yeah, the place is still a bit bare. Just moved in so new artwork is in order. My wife claims that she can paint better pieces than those I've seen and liked, so I'll be buying her new tools with which she can prove that claim !

Edit: The last pic was unnecessary/redundant.

As you can see in the second pic, behind the chairs and next to the dining room table is the kitchen, which of course is the length of the wall where the chairs are. I don't know how much that will affect the acoustics overall, but just something to consider. The width of it is about 7 feet, so not too big.

Thanks for the links. Checking out the River stuff, I'm a bit wary of them. Actually, I'm a bit wary of any company who states that at every single price point you happen to be looking at, the level of detail and extension etc etc is unparalleled by any other cable. What contradictory hype I think that is !

It's literally like they're saying " Get Cable A and you'll get the best cable around !" and then in another quote : "Get Cable B and you'll get the best cable around !" Too many flashy ads and distractions.. Which I guess is the point of what most of these companies do, since there ARE a lot of gullible people out there.

What are tip toes (I'm guessing pointy spikes or something that you put on the feet of your TT), and what is the granite approach ? Thanks. But the Signal cable stuff looks to be more reasonable.

__________________________________________________

@ Gonk: Which cable were you referring to here ? Lost me a tad. And actually, what I meant by single or double was the termination preference, not bi-wiring. I can't bi-wire with my Energies (I don't think so anyway. Only two binding posts)

And wow, I had no idea of the state of copper these days ! Since when has there been a shortage of good copper ?

Copper supplies have been stretched thin for at least the last year or so.

What exactly did you mean by single or double ended termination?

Are you talking about running two sets of cables for each connection vs just one?

And when Gonk was talking about the PCAs, those are the Outlaw audio interconnects with locking RCA connectors.

http://outlawaudio.com/products/cab_pca_about.html

I also completely agree with your statements about the other websites. I'm not sure that anyone has definitively shown that silver plated copper wire is any better for speaker wire than just good ol' high quality/high purity copper. And solid silver wire is just too expensive for the benefit you get.

Copper prices have been heading up for two or three years now. It has led to a thriving market in scrap copper (much of it stolen from construction sites) and higher prices in construction. It also contributed to a price increase on Outlaw's biggest multichannel amps last summer.

The connectors on Outlaw's PCA's "lock" - you screw them out to loosen the barrel, then after you have the plug in place you screw the barrel down until it clamps down onto the plug.

By single or double ended termination, are you talking about whether to have both ends of a speaker cable terminated? I don't see a reason to do anything differently at one end, unless some other factor contributes (such as banana plugs being hard to fit behind wall-mounted speakers).

Doug = DUH ! Oh, thooose interconnects !
^*idiot* I might just go with those, but the Signal ones look pretty nice as well. Hmm. Decisions, decisions.

And sorry for the confusion on my part about the terminology (pun kind of intended). What I meant about double or single was just how do you guys usually terminate your speaker cable(s) ? I was thinking spades on one end and either raw or banana on the other side. What type of connection seems to be the best kind for the 2150's binding posts ? As for my Energy C3's I guess I can figure which ones would be best for them, unless someone here has experience with them and would like to chime in ?

I have yet to use my C3's because I've always been kind of anal about hooking them up to my Onkyo, which in the past would make my current crap speakers cut out at times. Not sure why though. They haven't done that in years however, but I'm still reserving the C3's for the 2150.

The 2150's binding posts should work fine with any of the typical terminations: bare wire, spade, or banana. It's more a matter of what you prefer.

Thanks Gonk, on all accounts. I think I'm going to stear clear of the Outlaw's IC's though, after reading up on Head-Fi about many accounts where people had problems with the locking mechanisms and had screwed up their equipment. I'd rather not risk it at all. There are other alternatives for around the same price.

As for the speaker terminations, thanks. In the end, I might just decide to go bare wire. I had a thought:

If people make such a big deal about how different types of cable make a sonic difference, then it's only fair to think that when you add another connection to the chain, not only is that connection a weak link in the chain, but if it's not true to the material which it has been carried through up until the termination point, then what difference would the wire make, if at all at that point, if the end of it is dissimilar to the rest of it ? Does that make any sense to you guys ?

Or am I reaching now, and it shouldn't matter because it's all copper anyway, and no conductance is really lost at all ?

BTW, really off topic but.. Has anyone had the chance to listen to P.J. Harvey's latest album "White Chalk" on their Outlaw ? I'm listening to it right now and absolutely love the song "Grow Grow Grow". Sounds pretty good on my modest Onkyo set up now in FLAC out my IHP 120, and wonder how it must sound on a better system. Can't wait.

Well, because I don't have much to spend, Doug, I can't go too crazy with anything. Speaker cable-wise, however, I started with Monster, upgraded to Kimber Kable 4PRs (big difference) and then bumped up to Signal Cable Ultras (less so, but slightly louder and smoother on the top end).

I think Outlaw PCAs are an extraordinarily good value, and not as much of a pain as folks make them out to be. Mine have never gotten locked so tight that I couldn't easily remove them. For my subwoofer, though, I switched from Outlaw to Cobalt Cable because Outlaw didn't offer the length I needed; I had no complaints about the Outlaw PCA, but found that the Cobalt was quicker (even at twice the length, if that matters) and added a tad more clarity to my system (my wife noticed it before I did).

I'm about to do some trials pitting my current Outlaw PCAs against some Audience Maestro interconnects I found really cheap on Audiogon and am having re-terminated to outfit my entire system. One reason I checked into Audience cables is because their Au24 cable was recommended by Stereophile even though it was relatively cheap by their standards and the company didn't advertise in the mag regularly. I'm not expecting to see miraculous differences between ICs, but I'm interested in figuring out how easy or difficult it is to detect nuances between products. I'm quite happy with my current system, but if I can improve it for not much money, why not?

Well, I've made a final decision after having read through many a post on Head-Fi, and Blue Jean is getting all of my IC and speaker cable $ to start me off. I was intrigued with the fact that Blue Jean doesn't use any soldered joints, but rather 3 tons of pressure applied by very expensive crimpers... No solder is certainly better than solder applied incorrectly, which is easy to do I"m afraid.

Plus, I've really been sold on having my speaker wire going raw on both ends. Perhaps it's [partially] because a person's post I was reading happens to share very similar philosophies as I do regarding the industry and conductivity (two separate issues of course) that I reached this verdict, but also because he was very enthusiastic about what his speakers had revealed once he took his terminated ends off (bananas I think).

I think his words were something to the effect of "a veil being lifted", which I can relate to when switching between different types of earphones I own.

The same thread also has me thinking that power conditioners are just as big of a sham. Not in that they don't do anything.. but rather that they have the opposite effect that one would desire, if only such people would listen to the sound as their sources were plugged straight into their walls. Dirty AC indeed...

And the savings I'll reap from doing it this way will allow me to look for a shelving solution for my TT without guilt. (or, too much guilt I guess.)

Once I've found the TT solution, I'm ordering the 2150 ! *smiley ear to ear*

doug.

I think this is it:

http://www.needledoctor.com/Rega-Wall-Bracket?sc=2&category=209

So:

Outlaw Receiver $499 (B Stock)
Blue Jean Speaker Cable &
Blue Jean IC's x 2 $89.25 including shipping.
Rega Wall mount $150

Total =$750

Is that a freegin' bargain or what ?

Ok, I ordered the TT shelf, and even bought some new speaker stands for my Energy C3's, since I can now put those cruddy speakers on the current stands in the bedroom. I'm about to pull the trigger on some Bluejeans cable stuff, but I'm confused. So this question is for anyone who has ordered from them before. I posted this at Head-fi just a bit ago :


Is the order form truly necessary ? I was about to place an order for speaker cable and IC's, and saw that their "primary" means to process a CC order is through Paypal. I don't deal with PP. I also see that they have secondary means through a regular CC processing center.

When selecting one item for purchase though, the continue shopping button doesn't work, and ultimately leads me to choose the check out page, where there's a "back to blue jeans" button that does work, but when it's pushed it leads to a page that asks if I have a problem in ordering ?

So, is this really just a way to get me to use the order form w/fax ? I'm a bit confused by the process really.


I also just realized as I was actually able to get all the items I wanted in the basket, that besides the Paypal logon, there's the regular ol' "Pay With Credit Card" form right next to the PP login. Um, this is what confuses me. They say that if you pay by credit card, you should submit the order form by fax with an itemized list of goods from the basket.

But then, why would this forum exist and be independent of the PayPal log in ? What am I missing here ?

Doug

Why do you not deal with Paypal?

And yes, that's how I've purchased from them in the past. Never had any problems.

Never had any problems with Paypal either. Their systems are secure (or at least as secure as systems get in the online banking space).

I beg to differ with such strong conviction about Paypal being secure..... I don't deal with them anymore because well:

I used them ONCE. Signed up so I could buy a TT cartridge from somebody, and it went well. That was about 2 years ago. Two February's ago to be exact. Make a long story short, last November I went to purchase something from a local drug store using my ATM card which is linked to one of my checking accounts. The cashier said it was declined, which is bizarre considering the account should have had a few thousand dollars in it. I only used that account for weekly expenses and such. I knew it had money in it.

So I went to my bank which was down the street and asked for a transaction history for the month. Much to my shock and dismay, a Paypal transaction sat there staring me in the face, with the exact amount of money I had in there, ready to be sucked out of it. My wife and I ran home and I got online and logged into PP, which incidentally I hadn't used since the first and only transaction (that was a year since)and hadn't even logged into PP for any other reason.

And there I saw it: All the money in that account, just waiting for approval from "ME" to transfer said money to some other PP account under an email name I had never before seen in my life ! People on Head-fi accused me of falling victim to some phishing scam, but I know differently. I'm a techie, and know MUCH better than to ever fall for anything of that nature. I'm not stupid.

Anyway, resolving the issue with PP was a NIGHTMARE ! After getting my money back (which thank god I was quick enough to catch and do) I got a letter from a law firm who represents the PP corporation threatening to sue me for said amount of money !! What... the... hell ? Needless to say, not only did PP receive various calls from me, but the "law" firm did as well, and they felt both my and my wife's wrath.

I wanted to counter sue for harassment to be honest, but I hate drama and just wanted to be finished with them all together.

I have my suspicions that what happened was an inside job, but there's no way of ever proving that, so I'm finished even caring. I just refuse to ever deal with them on that level of business again.

Though you and countless others have not fallen victim to the same crimes, I'm sure you can appreciate my stance here. Also, while there are many who have had good experiences, there are lots of others who unfortunately have had similar if not worse experiences with PP. I was pretty lucky to be honest.

Doug.


Edit: perhaps you've seen: this link ?

Thanx for sharing that, Doug. I always kinda cross my fingers when I use payPal, but so far, so good…

Aaaalmost there !

Just got off the phone with BlueJeans cable co. and really enjoyed talking to the rep who was very honest as well as knowledgeable. He saved me a decent amount of money by suggesting a couple things (which I suspected made sense before I talked to him, but his confirmation solidified my feelings)and taught me something as well.

So, my cables are on their way, as is my Rega wall mount shelf and some speaker stands. Hopefully they'll all arrive on Friday or Saturday the latest.

My final dilemma is in deciding where to put the turntable. I guess that for now, I can just keep it on that base next to the TV. But I think I really either need to buy a new A/V rack, or perhaps just extend the RCA cables to a different location in the house. I don't know but, the former seems to be the better option. Once all my stuff arrives, I order the 2150 .... Yay !

What recommendations did the Bluejeans guy give you that saved you money?

Now you've put us all in suspense Share the wealth, hehe

Well, it's information which I'm sure most of you already know or at least have your own opinions about, and figured I'd spare myself the embarrassment of letting you all know that I needed to be told this stuff anyway.

My first question to the gentleman was whether or not they offered to "tech flex" their speaker cables. He hesitated for a second, and then told me " um..yeah, I suppose we can do that, up to 20 feet".

He then went on to tell me that he would really recommend against putting any tech flex stuff on any speaker cable of theirs because it would then reduce the NEC rating which it currently holds. Although that was a tad above my head, I can only assume that I'd fare better with it off.

He also mentioned that the tech flex stuff wasn't really even as flexible as the cable without it, is. So although it's aesthetically pleasing, it really serves no other purpose than for looks. I can live without that.

His next bit of advice is where I saved the most though. I was going to get the 10ga wire, but he suggested that 10ga was overkill, after asking his opinion about it. Especially since it might not even fit into the binding posts since I'm going raw !

I naturally went with the 12ga then, which is 57c rather than 85cents per foot.

Of course, most if not all of you would have known this already, but what speaks volumes to me is how he could have just let me go and do what I wanted, no questions asked or worse yet, could have lied to me to make a bit more money for the company.

I was very happy to have done business with them, regardless of what the speaker cable is going to "sound like". I put quotation marks around those words because to be honest, I'm not a believer in fancy cables making a sonic difference for the supposedly only good variance in sonic qualities. I do believe that different cables may accentuate certain frequencies and such, but not because of the reasons which many companies claim them for....

That said, I must confess that in my new apartment which is a lot more spacious than my previous Manhattan studio, my very modest (to put it lightly) setup which consists of some Rat Shack Optimus speakers, an Onkyo TX SV515pro and a Toshiba DVD player that I use to play CD's, sounds not half bad with certain material.

The speaker cable I'm using now, is some 14ga stuff I got from Target on a 50 foot spool, and cost me around $20 I believe. I'm paying the same for the BJ stuff. The cable isn't really that bad of quality actually, a bit better than the stuff I usually got from Rat Shack. Only, one side of the cable is silver (sure it's not really silver though of course) and the other copper. What could the silver colored side be ? A different grade of copper, or some type of hybrid stuff ?

So, my total at BJ is $50 for IC and speaker cable. I'm really anxious to compare my current set up to the 2150, NAD C521BEE CD player and Energy C3 speakers. Oh, and of course I can't forget the Rega ! The biggest decision I'll have to make once I get it all hooked up is, what test material should I use ? !!! ?

I only have 3 LP's right now, though I used to have a lot when I lived with my dad long ago... but don't ask, as it's really depressing to think about where they went... Going to have to start a new collection. (Hmm, will have to start a new thread for that too ! Tru Blu always seems to have good taste and always something to recommend.)

I think by the NEC rating he meant that if you surrounded the speaker with techflex that it would no longer be rated for in-wall/plenum use.

The silver colored side is probably aluminum strand or aluminum coated copper.

My demo of choice is currently the Matrix lobby shooting spree scene Although Transformers is also a very good sounding movie. For music, I have no idea...I mostly listen to electronic which doesn't necessarily require a lot of detail/imaging to sound good.

But wait, do you have a 2150, or one of the other pre-pro setups ? If you do have the 2150, how are you using it for movies, meaning what's your setup speaker wise ?

Thanx for the kind words, Doug. Until you start that new thread, though, a coupla new LPs I have should probably interest you. I think you mentioned elsewhere that you're into Interpol, right? Well, throw away that pretty-boy stuff (heh heh…) and get into Joy Division, the originators of that sound. Unknown Pleasures and Closer are on vinyl again (part of the marketing push for the new film Control, about their suicidal lead singer Ian Curtis); the wife and I have been enjoying the hell out of both discs. Kinda making me understand the meaning of "soundstage."

While I can definitely appreciate the obvious influence that JD have had on bands such as Interpol, my first impression of them is that I'm glad bands such as the latter exist in order to show what a refined and musically mature version of the former can achieve !

My first complaint about JD is that the vocalist has a terrible voice. He should have taken some lessons rather than getting high IMO... Secondly, and this really isn't all their faults but, the production quality of their albums is quite bad. Listening to Unknown Pleasures, this is starkly obvious, as the drums sound like they were mixed to be in a different room than everything else. And the rest of production is a bit sloppy I think.

That aside, the rhythms are without a doubt what gave Interpol and other such bands their "signature", and I do like them, but melodically speaking JD sounds a bit immature. Can I appreciate the music for what it is ? I guess so. But do I truly enjoy it musically speaking ? Not much really.

Let me get on with "Closer" and see if that one agrees with my tastes a bit more. Thanks so much for the recommendation though. I've heard from friends on more than a few occasions that I should be listening to JD if I like Radiohead and Interpol etc.. but never really felt a strong inclination to actually give them a whirl.

At least now I have some material to reference for comparison, which is useful. Thanks !

Oh and please, don't let my opinion of JD prevent you from suggesting any other musicians or bands, I'd hate to lose you as a resource !

Doug

Hmmm…well, the only thing we can agree upon about Joy Division, Doug, is Ian Curtis' voice. Of course, I'd have to stop listening to rock & roll altogether if that held me up. He's certainly no Sarah Vaughan, but then, neither is Bob Dylan.

I'm not sure what "melodically immature" would mean in this case. That the chords aren't "sophisticated" enough? I'm afraid that's what people have been saying about great rock & roll since the very beginning, when they wanted the blues to act like classical music or something and not be excitingly primal. I can imagine you're pretty tired of being ribbed by your friends about Interpol, but maybe you wanna listen to Joy Division without that chip on your shoulder? I can't call myself an audiophile (yet), but sonically these pressings sound pretty great to me—and yes, the drums truly are the hypnotic element.

I'd have to say there's nothing "immature" about songs like "No Love Lost". Sure Joy Division didn't have the same musical chops as one of the other great punk bands of the time The Clash, then again the real punk movement wasn't about talent or nice packaging. That's why Johnny Rotten gets so upset when people label bands like Greenday as punk.

Anyhow, I don't agree that you should like a band that influenced a band you do like...

It's like I like Beck, but don't necessarily get into the folk/bluegrass/whatever stuff other than rap that influenced him.

Or just because I like Tesoro doesn't mean I have to like Jose Cuervo which obviously was influential in getting Tequila to be widely drank in this country.

However, to muddy the argument, to like electronic music without liking Kraftwerk is just insane.

Geez, look what I started…BloggingITGuy (would you be offended if I shortened that to "B.I.G.", like the famed hip-hopper), I tend to agree with you about influences, except when the music of the new band seems like a carbon copy of the old one, like Interpol/Joy Division. Can't really say that about Beck most of the time. In any event, at this point I'm pretty secure in my opinions, so I don't mind agreeing to disagree.

There's still the business of finding Doug some cool vinyl to break in his new system with.

LOL, no I wouldn't be offended, but if you prefer you can call me Alex.

And I think that music is one of those things where subtle differences can make a big impact to a particular listener.

I mean what is it that makes a band come out with a "one hit wonder" single off of an album? The other songs all sound similar, but there was just something "magical" about that one song.

Anyhow, I'm going to stop muddying the waters in this conversation now as I have nothing further to add. Not being a vinyl guy (I think the last record I bought was "Reach the Beach" by The Fixx or perhaps Eddy Grant's "Killer on the Rampage" (the one with Electric Avenue on it) in the 80s) I wouldn't have a clue as to what vinyl albums are good or not.

But I will say that the new Transformers movie is a great sounding movie for those of us into home theater. Oh wait...that's muddying the waters...my bad.

I can't f'ing believe this (excuse my french) but I just typed a 2 paragraph reply, only to have my wife's POS laptop close firefox because of it's crappy finger sensor (old lappy) and lost everything ! I hate this thing !

Basically what I said was (in a nutshell) that I didn't like the first few songs of unknown pleasures, but soon after really got into the rest of it,so my judgment was very premature. This judgment was amplified by the fact that the singer's voice grated on my nerves on those first few songs as well.

I also said I have no chipped shoulders when it comes to music or pre conceived notions...but that I understand what you mean about that genre and vocalists in general. I still stand by what I said in regards to melody. A lot of their riffs do have a certain melodic quality that often gets a bit displaced and winds up going somewhere else, whereas with Interpol, I get the feeling that the melody or theme of the song is often expanded upon and goes somewhere...

But again, those were just initial thoughts, and I have to really give the albums more than a couple listens ...

@Alex:

Which receiver or setup do you have ?

Oh and btw, my Rega TT wall mount as well as Blue Jeans Cables have arrived ! And I went to Ikea today, and picked up a very decent A/V thing for under $100, and it looks pretty good too ! I just have to figure out where to place it now.

One more question I suppose: For anyone familiar with carpentry... I need to screw the TT mount into the wall, so I really need to find the beams (studs) within the walls. I know how to knock of course, but I don't know if the beams would be wooden, or metal. Without the use of a stud finder, what's the best way to figure this ?

Is there a standard distance that beams must be set apart in an apartment type setting ? I'm going to visit the guy at my hardware store tomorrow and see if he has any good info for me as well.

Doug

Doug, the code distance between studs is 16" on center, measure out from adjoining wall to get to your first general area. Look for vertical row of nail heads or patches at that point.

The general contractors I've worked with around here tend to prefer wood frame construction for apartments over metal studs (wood apparently being cheaper), but that sort of thing can be very dependent on the region you are in - even if material costs are the same, labor costs and design factors such as floor-to-floor height could tip the balance toward metal stud. Screwing into the studs is only going to be useful if you have wood studs, anyway - otherwise, you would likely need to go with some sheetrock anchors of some sort since there's not enough "meat" to a metal stud to support that kind of weight without an anchor to assist. Like JimP says, 16" OC is the typical stud spacing. If you can find what you think are nail or screw heads, a very small drill bit can be a good way to test your hypothesis: run it in and see if it bites into wood (or hits metal). A couple of small holes can verify exactly where the edges of the stud are, and they would be minimally invasive - especially compared to running a big screw in, clipping the very edge of the stud, and having to run a second screw in an inch and a half or so away.

Hey Doug,

My system:

Sony 50" SXRD XBR (1st gen SXRD 50")
Integra Research RDC-7.1 prepro
Kenwood KM-X1 THX Ultra 6 x 100 watt amp
3 x Kenwood LS-X1F THX Ultra LCR speakers
2 x Kenwood LS-X1S THX Ultra rear surround speakers
Kenwood SW-X1 THX Ultra 12" passive sub
2 x Monster THX Tower Bass Module 200 sub woofers
Oppo DV-971H upscaling DVD player
Microsoft Xbox 360
Panamax Max1000+ power conditioner
Tripp-Lite 1500VA full online UPS
Monster AVL300 programmable RF remote
Salamander Triple 30 rack
All bluejeans cables except for one Outlaw PDO optical cable (which is how I'm still technically an Outlaw), Monster cable 5.1 THX prepro to amp interconnect bundle and Monster cable THX Xbox 360 cable bundle.

I've had all the Kenwood stuff since September of 95 when I got them all on sale through Air Force Exchange in Korea. Good package for its time although the amp is starting to show its age. Amp is imparting a high frequency hiss through the tweeters of all my speakers. Friend of mine says this can happen as components in the amp start to degrade.

I actually had an Outlaw 990 prepro for 3 weeks about a year and a half ago, but chose to go with the Integra Research RDC-7.1 instead since I was able to get it with 40% discount. I liked the Outlaw 990 except for two things, lack of inputs (only has two digital coax ins) and it made a popping noise every time I changed surround modes. Sounded great though.

So pros for the RDC-7.1...you get to say you have just about the heaviest prepro on earth (weighs close to 50 pounds since it uses the same power supply as the similar receivers that Onkyo made), its modular nature and the wealth of inputs.

Having gone through all that, I wouldn't pay $2600 again for a prepro I don't think. When you get down to it, sonic improvement of RDC-7.1 over the Outlaw 990 is negligable to none...The only thing I noticed when I moved to the RDC-7.1 is that it seems to amplify the signal before passing it on to the amp as reference level on my system now is pretty much on the edge of unbearable (108db in the Matrix gatling gun scene).

I want to upgrade my Kenwood amp to the Outlaw 7700 and 2200 (need 8 channels to power 7 speakers plus the passive sub which I'm keeping), but don't have the money for it at the moment.

Will also probably "downgrade" my prepro to the Outlaw replacement for the 990 when that comes out. I figure that I will be able to get more for the used prepro than what the new Outlaw will cost.

As an ending note, Dr. Hsu recommends putting a sub behind or to the side of your main seating area pointing at the main seats. I did this with the kenwood sub and it works wonders. Really gives movies that nice punch that you come to expect from theaters without being boomy. The two Monster sub towers are in the front of the system and also act as the speaker stands for my LR speakers.

Oh as a final aside, I got the Monster stuff at significant discount or I would have gone with some Outlaw or Hsu subs.

By the way, one annoying thing about the sub towers is that they have a auto-on switch but no way to turn it off and no 12 volt trigger.

They are good sounding subs, but for that reason alone I'd probably want to go with something else eventually...although I do like the fact that they make nice speaker stands.

I am using the l/r interconnects that come with purchasing a cd/dvd player. All certified crap going directly from cd&pre outs to a 7125 amp. Sounds like a $%%%^ dream! Anybody heard the radio on this thing!

AAAaaaaah ! Somebody at Outlaw please pick up the phone ! I want to place an order !

Nothing, but nothing...will stand in my way of placing the order today ! If you guys can believe it, I almost withdrew myself from the plans because something MAJOR has just happened to me !

At this point, if I were one of you, I'd be thinking that I was a pathological liar, and never had any intentions on buying the receiver, but there's really something weird, almost karmic about this situation...

I can't say what it is (and please don't ask, but feel free to speculate on your own) that has happened during this past week, but it's something that if I were a religious man, I would have to believe is attributed to god's un-willingness to grant me the right to own the 2150 ! Every single time I wanted to pull the trigger, something happened at just the wrong moment.

I was actually going to order last week, seeing as how the Blue Jean Cables came in, as did the Rega table wall mount, but as perhaps fate would have it, something remarkably happened JUST at the time I was going to order ! But thankfully, my wife interjected with her oh so understanding soul, and assured me that I should go ahead and place the order.

I wasn't sure if she meant it or was just saying it, but her last words on the topic were to the effect that she wanted to hear the LP which she is on that was cut when she was a child in a choir in Hungary. It was recorded IN a big beautiful church, and it took her class several days to finish due to a demanding professor/conductor.

So, that was enough for me !

Now, if I can just get a hold of someone in the office.....

Ok, this time I left a message on the voice mail. Argh.

SCOTT !! Heeeeeeelllp Meeeeeee !

Guess What ?

Go ahead... guess.... Come on.. ... Who did I just get off the phone with, and what did I do ?


First correct guess gets a BIG Ol' S eatin' grin !

Hmmm.... Ummm.... You didn't talk to someone at Outlaw, I'm sure. Especially not Scott. And I'm sure you didn't do anything like placing an order for an RR2150 on that phone call. So I'm at a loss....

:p

Hmm... I don't see a smiley emocion for smart ass answers anywhere... Hold on please whilst I scour the net in search of something appropriate:

*puts on hold muic* (daaa dah da, dad daht da da dada da .... daaaat dah dah, da dah da, dahdadaaada....)



Well, you WERE wrong about ONE thing... I spoke with Edward, and not Scott. Very nice guy, who actually called me last night to return my call, but I was already out of the house, so had to wait till this morning(afternoon).

HOW EXCITED AM I ?!

(you don't have to answer that if you don't want to).

So I should have it by the beginning of next week, which is AWESOME ! Went with the B-stock and am hoping for the best. You know I'll be sure to post pics and will also have impressions ranging from out of the box to the point of my ears and mind having gotten used to the sound over the next couple weeks.

I don't have a sub yet, so if I remember correctly, I have to turn the bass management switch OFF, correct ? I'll probably create a new thread dedicated to audio impressions and keep this one going strictly for technical data to and from you guys.


I haven't put the turntable wall mount up yet, because I'm a bit up in the air with what to do. A friend of mine gave me a stud finder, which works, but I've determined that the distance between the studs isn't alligned with the screw holes for the mount. My friend has also offered to give me some special wall anchors which are meant to keep things extra sturdy/in place, which I might have to use considering that I might only be able to use one of the beams that I found...

You know, I do recall being told on at least a couple occasions (couple dozen? couple hundred?) that I can be a smartass at times. Glad to hear that you got in touch with the Outlaws and got your order in.

Look forward to seeing pics of your B-stock unit and your overall setup once it's hooked up and running. Without a sub, you are correct that you will want to set bass management to "off".

I've hung some mighty heavy surround speakers off of wall anchors before. I'd think that if you can get one side into a stud the other side should be fine with an anchor like that - it'd certainly be easier than adding blocking in the wall between the studs and patching the drywall, especially in an apartment.

Yeah, that sounds about right. If I owned this place, or a house, I'd do it up to the 9's and all that, but with a simple apartment set up, I'd rather just be as careful and neat as possible. And I think you're absolutely right about being ok with just one anchor in a stud. After all, I'm not planning on bouncing up and down all over the place while spinning my LP's !

Though... I can't speak for my neighbors. Luckily, I'm on the top floor though, so unless my downstairs neighbors decide to start dancing on the ceiling, I should be ok.

Now... The Biggest decision:

What should my first selections of music be to test with ?

But that, I think should be another thread, that I'll start tomorrow.

Sweet Spot,

Congratulations on your purchase. I'm really close to buying a RR2150, too. I'd love to hear your review and impressions after you receive it.

Sure enough... I'm certainly looking forward to some trials with my gear. Though this week is kind of rough for me, not to mention that I have no idea of when the 2150 will arrive. Last I checked, I still had no confirmation e mail from the Outlaws, and my wife received a call from them asking for her to authorize the purchase (which she did Thursday night) since we placed it with the Outlaw credit card, and it's under her name. (though I placed the order)

Well, I've waited THIS long, I guess another few days won't kill me now...

Oh and please guys:

Help me choose some demo music !

Thanks !

Shipped out today. Jennifer said it should get to me by Thursday the latest !

It's official ! At 10:40 A.M. my sleepy head (which went to bed at 4:30 am) heard the sound of words being exchanged through a closed bedroom door, and arose to find my wife signing for the delivery of our new baby RR2150 !

Glee ensues... And pictures shall follow ! Man, and I wasn't expecting it until possibly later on today or tomorrow ! Not that I'm disappointed of course, but we still have to put the turntable wall mount up. Plus I hate the fact that we now have to run to Home Depot and Trader Joe's before I can even take it out of the box ! GAH !

Congratulations on the new toy!

Funny. When my wife referred to the 2150 as a toy I wasn't nearly as amused... :p

So, I'm actually just getting to setting it up right now. The day was longer than I wanted it to be, and there was no way I could wait until tomorrow to get it out of the box, at the very least !

Um, I've got a really stupid question though... One which really shows just how ignorant I am. I've stripped the Blue Jean speaker cable for one speaker, and they're coated in black and white plastic, respectively.

I've always used cheap crap speaker cable which signified the positive side with a white stripe down one side of the pair. One was for the red and the other, the black. Is there still a - and + rule that applies here, or should I just put the black coated wire into the black binding post and the white into the red ?

So now... How much of a noob do I really look like ?

Edit: Never mind. Looking at the Blue Jean site, I see that my assumption was correct. Their banana and spade termination page illustrate the black color coded wire hooking up to the black termination, and the white to the red, so that should be all the reason I need to know this is correct.

Correct, shmorrect. Just make sure both cables are connected the same so the speakers are in phase. The rest is window dressing.

Listening...

Going through the motions......

Psychologically adjusting to the acoustic and dynamic range changes......

Switching up CD's (a lot).....


There is one thing that I can say for sure about this system when comparing it to my Onkyo TXSV515 and the Fisher Price speakers (rat shack optimus) that I have retired to the bedroom, and that is it's very finicky about material ! I can already also tell that my Energy C3 speakers have me wanting for something more.

While they're a whole lot more than a step up from the Optimus speakers, I get the feeling that the Outlaw is capable of pushing more than what the C3's are offering, especially in the breathy, mid-range department. Then again, as I stated up above, switching material really gives me an impression of how differently produced albums are represented with this set up, and that naturally makes me think of:

Synergy. There's no way though at this point, that I can draw any real conclusions about the C3's and the 2150 because I have yet to break either in, testing them with as many different recordings and material, nor have I had sufficient time to let my brain adjust to the change, in general.

I do however know, that I can say with FULL confidence that this setup is head and shoulders above what I had, and I'm very happy right now !

When I put on Peter Gabriel's Sledgehammer, I nearly cast a sardonic grin that would have frightened my wife, so I maintained control and thumped away with my feet instead. I'm currently listening to The Police's "Can't Stand Losing You" from the "Message In a Box Set" package. To be honest, a lot of the recordings in this set are not worthy of a hi-fi (or modest hi fi)system, so it may not be the best material to test with.

I'm about to pop on some Phil Collins (Hits) in a moment.

Oh. I nearly forgot...

I'm an idiot. Yes, I said it, an idiot. You guys will never believe what I did ! Finally got around to setting this jammie up last night, but it was really late and I was already exhausted.

The A/V stand that I bought from Ikea (for like $70) is absolutely PERFECT, except that the backing of it isn't exactly paper thin as most particle board backings are (should be a good thing, right ?) and in order to really fit the Outlaw in all the way, (it's pretty deep) I had to cut some of it out. Last week, my beautiful and expensive cordless drill was blown out, and I don't own a Dremel.

So the large, sharp kitchen knife it was... Well, after a couple of miscalculations, a broken knife is what I was left with, forcing me to use other smaller cheap (not going to use good cutlery ya know) knives. Ok, after some frustration and many slices and cuts later, the CD player and Outlaw were in. Now, it was time to splice and strip and put the speaker cable in.

Here, is where my idiocy steps in. (As well as my sailor-like mouth when I'm frustrated) The wall where the right side speaker is located (directly next to the foyer entrance) up to the wall where the A/V unit and gear is, measures 17 feet. I ordered 25 feet worth of speaker cable thinking I'd have enough. "Thinking", being the operative word there.

Well, did I even bother to calculate for the distance between the floor and each run UP the speaker stand to the posts ? No. Did I calculate the curve the cable would have to make in order to go to the AV system, rather than go straight ? Niet.

Idiot.

It's ok though. For now what I've done is:

Moved the foyer speaker about 3 feet closer to the Outlaw, then moved the Outlaw on top of the A/V rack rather than have it on the bottom where I intended it to go. Called Blue Jeans to order another set of cables, but they had a problem with their system last night, so I have to call back in another hour or so.

So, even though my speakers aren't set up the way I want, nor is my A/V rack... and even though I'm disappointed with how idiotic I was, the music sounds greeeat !

Pictures !
(click the names for bigger pic)
Christmas

Blue Jeans interconnects

messy setup

Front

Back


So that's what's what for now. Still have the Rega Turntable sitting atop my book shelf, and will get to that on Monday, the same as re-doing the speaker cable.

I love Blue Jeans Cable. Speaker cable arrived at 9:00 am, delivered by my super, no less ! Very fast turn around time.

That's great to hear, Doug. I must say, with all the pitfalls that one might envision in doing internet commerce, so far it's been pretty smooth for me, too. Obviously, it pays to do adequate research about sellers before buying. On another thread here I've been talking about the Audience interconnects I had re-terminated, but what I didn't mention is that the San Diego-area company turned them around quickly despite the fact that it was in a state of emergency while processing the order. It was the week of the California wildfires! Talk about above and beyond the call of duty.

Reminds me of the idiom "Come rain or shine". And for the record, for both orders, I placed them over the phone, letting them know that it was difficult for me to get to a fax. They were always very accommodating, pleasant and professional.

And so, I got my stuff set up all "proper now", except for the turntable (grrr) which I'm going to wait to set up for when a friend of mine comes over.

But here's where the A/V and speakers should have been from the get go:

Google web galleries

I was using photobucket to upload random pictures, but using Picasa is pretty snazzy, and easy to upload pics from. Only wish they didn't charge for unlimited space.